Eat My Globe

Kathy Fang Interview

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

Welcome to Eat My Globe, things you didn't know you didn't know about food. And today's guest is an extraordinary chef who I first met when we had the opportunity to judge together on Alex vs America. It was chatting to her then that made me decide she was the perfect person to have on a series on food history, such as Eat My Globe. Influenced by her upbringing in San Francisco's Chinatown neighborhood, as well as her extensive world travel, Kathy Fang has become known for her modern approach to creating healthy, approachable Asian recipes for the home cook and inspiring others to embrace their heritage through food, entertaining and wellness. A first generation Asian American, Kathy discovered her passion for cooking growing up in the kitchen of her family's iconic Chinese restaurant, the House of Nanking, where she began creating dishes and exploring her culinary interests. In 2009, Kathy returned to San Francisco and opened Fang restaurant with her father, the legendary chef, Peter Fang, where she served as a chef and co owner. At Fang, Kathy blends her family heritage and cooking style, which includes influences drawn from many parts of China, and I want to talk to her about that later. With inspiration gleaned from her global travels to create a sophisticated multicultural take on China's rich cuisine. A new book published with co author Peter Fang is “House of Nanking: Family Recipes from San Francisco's Favorite Chinese Restaurant” was recently published to a lot of plaudits. So welcome, Kathy. I'm so excited that you're gonna be on the show.

Kathy Fang (“KF”):

Thank you for having me, Simon. I'm equally excited. I love any sort of opportunity to talk about our food, our cuisine, our culture.

SM:

Well, that's fantastic. So, before we go on to talk about your book and your travels and everything like that, would you tell us right now what's going on with you right now?

KF:

I actually just came back from China.

SM:

Whoa.

KF:

I took pretty much a whole summer off. I've been doing this the last couple of years. I take my mom with me, so it's like a built-in holiday for her. I bring my two kids, six-year-old and eight-year-old. So, I think they're really like at the prime time of their life to be able to really absorb like sponges, the culture, the food, and really learn to appreciate the rich history that they have around them. So, newly traveled from Asia and back.

SM:

Oh my gosh. I so want to go back to China, but we'll talk about that later. And I was there for about nine weeks. It was a long time ago now. Oh yeah. And I went to a lot of places, you know. So, we'll talk about that later. I know that you originated you to start your career with Merrill Lynch and Johnson and Johnson and so, and so tell us about that and then tell us about why you came back to the culinary tradition.

KF:

Yeah, growing up in a very traditional Chinese family, they essentially opened the restaurant to make money so that they can help support me and provide better opportunity. That's not to come work at the restaurant, better opportunity meaning to go become a doctor or a lawyer or go work for a big corporate company like it go to finance. And so being the very obedient child, I decided that's what I'm gonna go do. Initially I thought I was gonna go be a doctor, then I realized I'm terrified of needles and hospitals freaking out. I was like, okay, I can't, I can't make my parents proud in this space, but I can go into finance. So, I studied business and just kind of went with it and realized that I hated it. It was very uninspiring and I, it just felt very sad to me to live my life this way, doing something I really just didn't enjoy. I didn't like going to work every day, and I can't imagine doing that my whole life. And so, I decided, well, what do I enjoy doing? What makes me happy? Which is a very novel idea for a Chinese person to think about, right? What makes me happy? It's always what's stable, what. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . and support the family. So, I went the opposite direction and said, let's think about that first, because I think that's important. And I know at the end of the day my parents want me to be happy. And it always came back to food. I've always loved cooking. I like love entertaining. I loved actually the whole restaurant upbringing. The part that I didn't enjoy was that I felt like it took my parents away from me. It took like my childhood kind of away from me because I didn't. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . have the typical life. And I said, initially I'm like, I don't want that for myself or my family. But the passion kind of overtook that and said, you know what, I think it's more important to focus on what you love doing, and then you can figure out the rest, right? Like you can, you can make changes. I don't have to do it the way that my parents did it. And that's kind of that first step. I went back to House of Nanking, quit my job, and spent a whole year just working there every single day, doing everything from cleaning tables, busing tables, cooking in the kitchen, just running the restaurant alongside my parents.

SM:

And how did your father, how did he feel about that? Because to have you come back is great for him, but he obviously had this superstar you know thing for you, and for you to come back, I mean I'm sure he loved it, but. . .

KF:

I. . . well, if he loved it, he didn't really show it at first.

SM:

Ha ha ha.

KF:

I just remember the phone call. I was terrified and I made that phone call purposefully from LA and not like go home and tell them in person because I knew that would have been too hard. So, I remember calling them and telling them that I decided to quit. And the first response was my dad said, are you sure you didn't get fired?

SM:

Ha ha ha.

KF:

Like did something happen, right? Like something major must have happened. And I just told him I, I really didn't enjoy what I was doing. And I think he was a little scared. He was just sort of I think in the moment thinking about wow all the sesame chicken that I sold and all the hard work that went into your tuition and now you're gonna come back to the restaurant. And he's like, I didn't even have to work that hard if the restaurant's what you wanted. So, I think it came with a lot of fear and uncertainty. And also I think my dad he thought that, the younger generation, he always thought that we were kind of soft, like we didn't go through the same hardships that they went through.

SM:

Yeah, absolutely.

KF:

And he always made that very apparent. So, he thought that maybe I was bored, right? Like I was bored with what I was doing and that, oh these young people, their heart is slippery. It's a term, like a Chinese term. It's that the heart keeps changing and it wants to do this one day and that one day. So, it was more like fear for his daughter going down the wrong path. But, I think deep down inside, which he never told me at the time, was that I think he was also excited to have me back, right? Like this is the first time me being in college. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . and working away from home. You have to understand my dad is I think very, very controlling in the sense that he just like the restaurant, he never opened more. I called my dad every single day when I was in college. I never missed a single night. If I missed a night, you better get. . .

SM:

Oh, that's amazing.

KF:

. . . he's gonna call the props and say that I went missing. Like that's my dad. And so, you know he was excited to have me back.

SM:

That's great. And your mum as well, I'm sure.

KF:

Yes, my mom, a little bit more relaxed and I think in that relationship you have to have that, right? Like one's really intense. My mom's kinda like the don't worry. There's lots of conversations when I was younger. Kathy will know what she needs to do, like she will step up, and my dad's like, yeah.

SM:

Oh that's fantastic. And I know because I come from a family where my father was a surgeon and my mother was a nurse and he's from an Indian thing. So very similar in how they dealt with that, but it was a great thing. So, I know and just talking about your mother and father. They're from Shanghai, right?

KF:

Correct, both of them.

SM:

That to me, the food there is exceptional. I really love that city, but I'm guessing it's changed a lot since he was there, a lot, because I went there and it was all modern and you know, very high amazing buildings and everything. And I'm guessing when he came over to San Francisco, it was a lot different.

KF:

Yes. Yeah. I, gosh, China and Shanghai. Let's just talk about Shanghai 'cause that's where they're from.

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

I mean, it changes pretty much every single year. So, you go, then the following year you go again and you're like, wow, this neighborhood looks completely different. And even the restaurants, the competition's so high, it's like this place was there and super popular. You go back, it's gone. it's constantly evolving. And for my dad and my mom, them being able to experience that change, I think was something they never expected to see because when they left, it was kind of a place that they're like, I'm not coming back, right? Like they're just like, Okay, done with this. And it took them many, many years to actually decide, oh do you know, do we want to go back?

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

Things were, you know, they're here and they have friends and family there and everyone telling them, things are different now. And I'll never forget the story my dad told me the first time he went back after emigrating to San Francisco. And at that point, I think it had been, I don't know, 15 years. He went back and he tried to take the bus, right? Thinking he could figure this out. He couldn't figure it out, but the first thing he couldn't even figure out was how to pay. And he. . .

SM:

Oh.

KF:

. . .stepped on and the guy goes, All right, you know, you gotta pay. And my dad's like, excuse me, sir. He's like, Is this like a dollar or is this like 10? And the person's like, You're Chinese and you can't read the currency? Like, you're not Chinese. And they rushed him off the bus. And so, there was so much change at that point that my dad couldn't. . .

SM:

I'm sure.

KF:

. . . even recognize the currency. Right. He was like.

SM:

Wow.

KF:

Yeah, so that's the kind of evolution I feel like the city has gone through that if you don't go for a couple of years even now, you feel you're lost.

SM:

So, tell me again though, the food there in Shanghai, the food everywhere, and we'll talk. . .

KF:

Yes.

SM:

. . . about that in a moment, but the food in Shanghai was something that just blew me away. Just absolutely blew me away. So, can you just talk about that for a second as well?

KF:

Well, so Shanghainese cuisine, and we might be biased, is I think one of the best out of China. It's bold, it's full of flavors, and also the ingredients that we have access to because of the Yangtze River. You you're talking like live river seafood from the prawns, the type of fish that you can.

SM:

I went up the Yangtze River. I went up the whole I whole way. It was that was so great.

KF:

Yeah, and so you know, you've got the freshwater seafood, very delicate flavors. Then you have the usage of like Shaoxing wine, which is very prevalent in a lot of our recipes and marinades and sauces. You've got the soy. My dad would always joke that you can't make Chinese food without soy sauce, MSG, sugar, and Shaoxing wine. It's almost like that holy grail that all. . . .

SM:

Well it's almost like a show like what do you call it? Sofrito.

KF:

Sofrito, yeah. You got, you gotta put all those things together and then powered by it like the ginger and the scallions. And then there are a lot of things that come from Shanghai that people don't even naturally think about. So, Xiao Long Bao, which is like incredibly popular all over the world now, right?

SM:

Yeah, yeah.

KF:

People are going crazy over, but a lot of people know of it as being like Taiwanese because of Din Tai Fung, right? Din Tai Fung really popularized this delicious dim sum item. However, Shanghai is actually known, like if you're in China, Shanghai is actually known for Xiao Long Bao. It's almost like one of their you call it kind of like their staple almost iconic things when you think of Shanghai you think of Xiao Long Bao. It's something you eat for breakfast. And it's everywhere. And the style is also a little different. So, people will go and they'll say, oh wow, like I've never had Xiao Long Bao this way. The skin is a little thicker, it's got a little bit more chew to it, and the filling has a little bit of soy sauce versus the other version, which is Taiwanese, the one that most people know of, has no soy sauce in it. The actual meat itself has to have a little bit more of a bounce and textural bite to it. There's so there are a lot of nuances in it. And then the the famous one that a lot of people talk about is da zha xie. Da zha xie is a type of crab, hairy crab, famous from the Yangtze River, and they take all of the delicious meat and the roe, right, the best part, and they put it into the filling right into it, you've got all of that in there. So those are like kind of the prized joys of Shanghainese cuisine. And now the juicy pan fried buns that people are, all talking about. It's soft on the top, crispy on the bottom, called Shengjian Bao. These are all from Shanghai, or the famous Hong Shao Rou, which is the rage red braised pork belly. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . scallion oil toss noodle, all originated from Shanghai. So, it's a very exciting cuisine. And I'll say one more thing that a lot of people don't realize. . .

SM:

No, please.

KF: ( 14:53)

. . .as well is that Shanghai's cuisine, the way that they actually structure the meals is, it it's almost like a tasting menu, but it's probably like 20 something courses. So, traditionally you start with about six to eight cold dishes. Cold dishes are done, either sweet, savory, crispy, soft, so many different textures. Sometimes there's fruit incorporated into it. So, it's something that has to be on the table before your guests even sit down, right? It's a way to. . .

SM:

Okay.

KF:

. . . welcome them. The host always orders and has everything ready to go before the guests even arrive. So, you eat all of that, then comes the hot dishes. And the hot dishes are gonna be stir-fried, they're gonna be braised, they're gonna be steamed. So, you need seafood, you need meat, you need a whole like selection. You can't just do meat and not seafood, right? A broad base. Then they go to starch, which is what they call tsu tze, is like it can be fried rice, it can be noodles, it can be buns and soup dumplings. You can even stir that.

SM:

Ha ha. You make me feel so hungry.

KF:

And then they finish with soup and then dessert. And so you can imagine that's why they have these enormous lazy Susans.

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

It's just I think a lot of people don't realize the depth of just Shanghainese cuisine alone. It has so much involved in it. We don't have restaurants like that here yet, but maybe eventually.

SM:

That sounds fantastic. And I know we're gonna talk about more of the food, but I wanted to understand myself how people from China first came to the US because I read the stories about it, but I don't know why it came and why particularly it came to San Francisco, which is where you have your restaurant, in the first Chinatown in the United States, I believe. So, could you tell us about why they came over? Because I think that's gonna be really interesting to people.

KF:

So, originally when people started emigrating, and a lot of them were coming from the Guangdong region, which is the southern part of China, to California, let's just say Bay Area, because this is where I grew up, is because they needed laborers here, right? they were building the railroads, then they had the gold rush. So, they needed extra people and labor to do a lot of the difficult and hard work.

And at the time, what I understand is that they, they sent out this kind of like advertisement for the Bay Area, for California, as being the gold mount. It was advertised as that in China. So, people who would immigrate here came because of what they still call the Gold Mountain, where you literally can dig gold out of a mountain. This is a place of opportunity. This is a place where you can find jobs, right? And so, they made it very attractive for them, saying, come, they they brought them in like shiploads of basically laborers to do a lot of the hard, difficult work that I think it was just really hard to fill. But eventually what happened was once those jobs started to dissipate because the projects were getting finished, a lot of them had to find other types of occupations, right? What can they do if this is not their work anymore? And another thing kind of happened around the same time is once they started feeding into other jobs, a lot of racism started to happen around these people because again, these are unfamiliar people to the to the people. . .

SM:

Yes, yes.

KF:

. . . in the US at the time. And so, they had the Chinese Exclusion Act, which essentially prevented them from working unless they're like maybe one or two or three very small things that they felt was fine for them to take over and restaurants, creating food places is actually one of them. And that's also why. . . .

SM:

Those were the sorry to interrupt, but were those originally for the workers and the people there, or were they bringing in, different people from the US anyway who wanted to taste this food? Or are the two together?

KF:

I think it first started not as like we wanted to bring the food in. I think it started as more, what can we do when they couldn't come for the original purpose, which they brought them in to become laborers, not to like bring Chinese food to them. And once the people f lost their jobs, Chinese people had to figure out what can we do? And they're not educated, they can't really do much. Laundromats became really popular, right? We know how to clean, we can do that for people and cook. They started making the food that they know, but adopted it to what the people here could actually understand or appreciate. And it was something that was very easy, low barrier to entry. And then when the exclusion act happened, those were the few places that could they could still continue to work in. And I think Chinese people are just very resilient. And so, once they discovered this is something that they can do, they found a way to do it well, right? Like we're gonna make our food accessible, easy, cheap. And that was actually used to feed a lot of other laborers, working people, right? I think it became kind of popular, they made it tasty, made it sweet, made it filling, they figured out what people wanted, and that's what they served them. And when you look at even just like our generations and like the older generations that I grew up kind of admiring as a kid. When they do something well, they bring in relatives and family, right, from China and they say, Come, come. It's like a funnel. Like come. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . .and they come and they work in that restaurant, and then they start to grow, and maybe they go open another one, right? It's kind of their landing point. And I think that's kind of one of the biggest reasons why there's so many Chinese restaurants across the US, right? It, it's an astounding number that there's so many of them. And I think at one point the stats was that there's more Chinese restaurants than there are McDonald's and Taco Bell and KFC combined.

SM:

Wow.

KF:

And that's I think really because of the way that things were worked in prior, right? In the mid-1800s, when that exclusion act happened, it kind of forced these large amounts of people to only work in certain fields. And then they. . .

SM: ( 21:36)

Yeah.

KF:

. . . learned how to do that well. And they said, hey, if this is if this works, then let's go do that. That's actually why my parents opened House of Nanking. It's because when they immigrated here, they needed to make money. This was the easiest place. They went to become dishwashers and servers. And my dad wanted to go into real estate. He said, that's where I could make money. But my mom said, no, no, no, look at our bosses they are sending their kids to private school. They have a car and they have a house. To them, that's success. And they did it by opening a restaurant. And so that's why my parents are like, okay, let's open a restaurant, right? And so, yeah, it's very interesting.

SM:

I think that's really interesting because from England that was the Indian people and Bangladeshi people and the Pakistani people who did that and they started the Indian restaurants that then went out to everyone and I always talk about the chicken tikka masala which was created in Scotland and it's just this fantastic thing. So, what you're telling me then is something that I know and we always have Indian restaurants just down the street and in America they guess they had the Chinese and that kind of went to different nations. So, let's talk about that. They moved around the country you think because of that. And I still remember I was served at the oldest Chinese restaurant in the country, which was in Butte, Montana. And it's the one the one that's and I'm just going, how? But they went there because of mining. And that's when they started. So, that was fantastic. How do you think though that Chinese food went from being, in a restaurant to being one of the most successful and it is now, it's the most, I think, apart from maybe McDonald's and those sort of things. As the takeout. Yesterday my wife and I, we didn't have much work in and we went and bought a Chinese takeout. That's what we did. And we brought it home and we watched the TV and it was great. But it's very different. But how do you think that worked? How, how did that happen?

KF:

Well, I think like I said, for a lot of the immigrants who come here to start a business based off of survival they're always, I feel like thinking about how to make this a success, right? How do I stay in business? And so, a lot of it is focused on like Chinese American cuisine was created out of survival. How do we make this a success so we can continue doing it? And so, they figured out that, the food has to be, like I said, accessible, easy, affordable. And once they saw that this is stuff that people will take with them and have, and people like that, they think more about what kind of dishes can we create to make that something that people will enjoy even if it sits for a bit and even if you think about the takeout box itself right like some people don't know the classic white one right. . .

SM:

Yes, absolutely.

KF:

. . .that you can actually open up that box okay and it becomes a plate I don't know if you know that but. . .

SM:

No, but here's an interesting thing that I always share. It originally well you may know so but it originally came from an oyster maker it wasn't even a Chinese thing. It was something they used to carry oysters around and then one of the Chinese people, I don't know who it was, they thought, that is amazing. And for me, whenever I watch American TV and I see those boxes, I always go, that's Chinese food and they're sitting there eating the Chinese food. So, tell me about that. Yeah.

KF:

Yeah. It's that symbol, right? Yeah, you g so the point of it is like you're it's not that you would eat it out of the box this way, which you can and very convenient, but they also made it so that you could open it up and enjoy it as a plate, right? A food.

SM:

Hadn't I had no idea.

KF:

But I also think that another reason why Chinese food has done so well as takeout is because I think Chinese food has so much history and it's so broad that there's so much we can pick within the cuisine to make things suitable for takeout. So, let's just take American cuisine, right? Like classic American cuisine. Some suitable for takeout, but a lot not like steak and a perfectly cooked steak is hard for takeout. But like steamed fish is also not good for takeout. So Chinese food just has so much depth that you can just pick a little section of it and then say, okay, this is all great for takeout. This stuff is not. There's so much to just choose from and make it it's pretty much I feel like its own type of food. Take out Chinese food is like its own.

SM:

Of course, absolutely. It's just like Italian American, for example. That's so different. And so, pardon me, the the American Chinese is so totally different. And I wanted to talk to you about that because when you go to each of the different nations around the world, and I don't know if you've been to the UK, but the food is very different. There's is Cantonese food. And they but they do things like chips fries and they cover those in salt and pepper and chilies and, and they call this salt and pepper shrimp salt and pepper chips and they serve that with Chinese food and I think and no one else serves it in the world I don't think but it's so delicious and so those different types when I've been to Spain they often serve it with totally different. Now is that because of what they have there or is it because what people want?

KF:

I think it starts with what they have there, right? When I think about the way that my dad has created and innovated when he immigrated here, he wanted to utilize the ingredients that were fresh and delicious here, especially since he couldn't find a lot of the stuff that he grew up around.

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

Right. If we talk about just the sesame chicken with sweet potato. Sweet potato is not that common in Chinese dishes. But he saw that this was so delicious. American people love it. And I'm gonna pair that with chicken. So that kind of thought process, I think, applies to all these immigrants coming from different places. You telling me the Chinese people from Guangdong humming and salt and pepper is one of their key things for shrimp and crab. And they realize, well, people in England love their chips, right? We can do the same thing. It's just fried. It's something that's fried and delicious. And that combination. It's so lovely and genius. It's just very interesting to see, when you combine the immigration with the people there, it really influences the way that they adopt and they eat. When I was working at House of Nanking throughout high school, I would notice because Europeans would come at a certain time frame. So, a lot of people from England would come to our restaurant and they always I noticed people from different places would always ask for things that are a little different from Chinese food, right? And so, people from England would always ask for curries.

SM:

Oh yeah, we always ask for curry sauce as well. I love that. And I just love it.

KF:

Curry. And you know, in the beginning my dad and I were kind of like, why do they always ask for curry? Until we visited and we're like, well, that makes sense, right? Because they've got the Indian immigration, the influence. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . of all that, and Chinese food probably picked up on that and they say, Well, they like curry. We have our own version of curry. We could probably incorporate it into certain dishes. So, we would notice these things and people from out east, right, like from Florida and all those places, they would come and ask us about Crab Rangoon, right? Or fried wonton skins, which is not popular here, but popular out there. So, there's all these interesting influences because of immigration and people adopt to it. And then that's how. . .

SM:

Oh.

KF:

. . . they understand Chinese food to be, right?

SM:

And where does General Tso’s chicken come from? Because I've heard things about that that it does come from General Tso and blah blah blah. And then I've heard the more modern one going, well it doesn't and all of this. And so, I'd love to talk about that. I wasn’t gonna mention it. Now you’ve talked about it, I’d love to know. 'Cause we don't have that in England, we don't have that in France, we don't have that in Spain. But that's a thing they always have are to take out in every Chinese restaurant in the US.

KF:

So General Tso I have to tell you, like I personally myself didn't even really like grow up with it. But a lot of people would come into our restaurant and ask for it. And so, my dad was like, oh General Tso's chicken is really actually it's kind of like a combination of like a Hunan dish, who's got. . .

SM:

Uh-huh.

KF:

. . . it's a f a deep fried chicken that you sauté that's like a little spicy, then they incorporate a little sweetness to it because American people like a little sweetness, throw. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . some vegetables in it. And so, he is like, This was originated from China, but it evolved once it came into. The US and they added their own ingredients like places with the bell peppers in it and the sugar. But I myself have not even been really exposed to it. My generation came a little later. And so, when people ask, and my dad doesn't serve this type of stuff, my dad, well always known for his own thing, would be like, we don't, we don't do General Tso’s, we don't do Moo Gai Pan.

SM:

Yeah, that's great. But it's one of those things that I came over and thought, What is that? And I want to talk to you again at this stage about some of the areas of you can't name every area in China because they each have very different food and we don't have too much time. But things like the area of Xi'an has a very different food. I mean, that tends to be more Muslim based. They use lamb. They even have this little hamburger when I was up there. And so yeah, which. . .

KF:

Yeah, they're delicious.

SM:

. . . was gorgeous. I mean it was just fantastic. And we went to their market and bought all those foods. So, some of those dishes, I'd love you to talk about, oh gosh, what's it Chengdu. And they. . .

KF:

Okay.

SM:

. . . have very different recipes. So, could you talk about those? And are some of those recipes now coming over or are they over, to the US and everywhere else.

KF:

Yeah. So, I would say w I'll talk about both of these cuisines and also how it's already like here and some of them actually started quite early on. Hunan cuisine, which is actually considered one of the great aides, is. . .

SM:

Absolutely.

KF:

. . . something that like I grew up with because my mom's dad, his family is originally from Hunan. . .

SM:

Okay.

KF:

. . . but they immigrated. Not immigrate, then move to Shanghai. And so we still consider ourselves Shanghainese. But my grandfather would always make like Hunan style food at home, which was much spicier. It's more dry.

SM:

Much spice.

KF:

Yeah. A lot of fresh chilies, dry chilies. it's very like dry, it's not particularly saucy. And then they use different things like ginger, like red dates, different types of aromatics to punch up like a stir fry, but it's heavily meat-based. You don't have a ton of seafood in it, it's more meat-based and a lot of smoked and dried. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . meats like bacon, like salted hams, right? And so that's what I grew up at home as a kid. But when you look at Chinese food in San Francisco at the time, which early 80s, Hunan cuisine was actually quite popular, but it was a very watered-down version, not the kind. . .

SM:

Yes.

KF:

. . . that I was eating at home. This was a time when there are places called Henry Hunans. It was one of the most popular places, right? And this was the first introduction to spicy food for them, as far as Chinese food, because when you think of Chinese American food, most of it is dominated with Guangdong influence, right, as the base, because most people who first emigrated were from Guangdong, right? Since the railroads and the gold rush. And Guangdong, or what we call Cantonese cuisine also is much lighter in their flavors and seasonings. It's not heavy on the soy sauce. They rely on the natural flavors of the ingredients, very seafood heavy, with ginger, aromatics, but also like the beloved dim sum that we know of, right? The carts, all the Har Gow, the Siu Mai, the Char Siu Baos, all of that originates from Canton, Guangdong. So that's another cuisine that people were familiar with. And then in comes Hunan, which is a spicier. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . relative in China that's coming in with their own dishes with smoked hams. And I remember Henry Hunan became really popular because of this one dish that I tried it and I was like, I don't really understand it, but Americans loved it. And it was essentially like almost like a scallion pancake that they put ground spicy beef in and they put shredded lettuce and then a little cheese.

SM:

Okay. It's almost like a taco.

KF:

Almost. And they made it like into kind of a sandwich. But people loved that. But they were famous for the spice and they incorporated some smoked ham into their stir fries. But they. . .

SM:

Okay.

KF:

. . . had kind of like a Hunan food had kind of a moment. And. . .

SM:

Uh-huh.

KF:

. . . then I feel like it kind of went away. Like the Guangdong cuisine still kind of permeated and was more dominant. Then came kind of Shandong. Shandong is another great eight, right? Shandong is from the northern part of China.

SM:

Which I didn't go to.

KF:

Heavily wheat-based, so like the dumplings that we know of, like pot stickers, Shui Jiao, which is like wheat-based, thicker skin, more pork, pork-based fillings, noodles, like toss noodles, Zha Jiang Mian, that kind of. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . food that comes from the Shandong region. And that became highly popular here. So now we're. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . experiencing sort of different types. And more recently, Szechuan cuisine which comes from Chengdu, right.

SM:

Yes, that's what. . .

KF:

That is making a huge splash because now I think people actually love the introduction of spice and they want more. People are asking for Szechuan peppercorns. I want the numbing spice. And like I said. . .

SM:

Ha ha ha.

KF:

. . . these Chinese people know they're like, okay, this is what they like. This is what got what we're gonna give them. And we can be more adventurous. We can introduce things like La Zi Ji or Shui Zhu Yu. Like Shui Zhu Yu is just like tender morsels of fish sitting in this huge pot of red oil broth that's spicy with peppercorns. Delicious, right? But like twelve years ago.

SM:

People are people on, sorry, people on li can't hear this, but I'm just sitting here kind of salivating in my back. And I do this when I speak to most people who are talking about their cooking, 'cause it's obviously we have amazing people on this show, really amazing people. And whenever they mention s the food and this Chinese particularly, I'm so excited about it. So, forgive me if people outside not hearing me speak too much because this food sounds so fantastic.

KF:

Yeah. So, like Szechuan Cuisine is having their own time right now. So, if you go to the Bay Area now, you'll see almost like every couple neighborhoods has several Szechuan cuisines. And I don't know if is do you think England has taken kind of that influence these days?

SM:

Oh yeah. Particularly in London they have lots of the very different so we'll have Xiang Fu, we'll have Chengdu type food, we'll have Hong Kong food, we'll have all of those. Because obviously London and a lot of the areas around London have, a lot of people from China and from Taiwan. I've been to Taiwan. Yeah, it's got a lot of those. So, I think that's very lucky as well. Talk about Xi'an food though because that's the area that I enjoyed the most I think. And I it was there was a lot of Muslim which people don't think about, because that was the beginning of the Silk Road and all of that. So, will you just tell us about that?

KF:

The food there they're actually f a lot of times famous for their Xinjiang skewers, right?

SM:

Yep.

KF:

Like skewers of lamb and mutton and meats with lots of spices, dry spices, and that the bread that you're talking about, I think that's also become very popular out here. They call it almost like a it's like a Chinese burger, these baked bread. That's like kind of flaky in there. They, they have these roasted pit meat that they shave off, full of flavor, a lot of spices, you bite into it. So, Xi'an food also has quite a bit of heat, I feel.

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

More meat base and highly influenced by also the proximity that they are to Mongolia area.

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

So, it's just there's so much to explore, in China. And I going and experiencing some of it just a sliver, I feel like I'm still like in infancy stage. It is very hard. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . to be able to understand the depth of all of. . .

SM:

There's well it's such a huge country and the depth of each food is so different.

Let me ask you about some of the other things though, because when you have something that's so out there in terms of so different from what you do, say Panda Express, is that a hindrance to you? Syb ac my wife actually goes and buys Panda Express and she loves orange chicken. And she does, she loves it. It's more of a take out, it's very different. And how does that impact you when people come in and go, Okay, well I want tangerine chicken is what I had when I was in China, it was a tangerine style of chicken. And so does that h hinder you or does it help you?

KF:

I don't believe it hinders us because Panda Express is kind of an entry point for people, right? We, we still have, I think, people from different demographics of the US that don't have the same exposure to Chinese food like we. . .

SM:

Mm-hmm.

KF:

. . . do, right? We're very lucky being in say California, right? People in New York, they're like a vast majority of the country people have that exposure, but there are still a lot of people with more minimal access points. And so, Panda Express kind of serves as that gateway. It's the gateway for people to say. . .

SM:

That's the. . .

KF:

. . . this food is not scary. This food is actually really enjoyable.

SM:

That's interesting.

KF:

Right? It's enjoyable. It's like our McDonald's for Chinese food. And so. . .

SM:

Yeah. No no, it really is.

KF:

I understand the purpose of it and we, we consider the success of Panda Express as really like a prideful story for us immigrants to see that our food can become this kind of symbol, just like the McDonald's arc. And I grew up actually not having Panda Express at all until I went to college. And when I was in college, living in the dorms, I had such a big craving for Chinese food that that like saved me, right? Yeah, I had no car, I had no ability to go have Chinese food or cook in my dorm because you couldn't do that. And so having the Panda Express as a standalone place inside a university means like, okay, it was like Chinese food, Mexican food, and then there was like a Wolfgang puck. So, you got pizza and salads, right? So, it had like is big enough for it to like have a spot and it basically fed me and sustained me. I got my rice. I love their orange chicken. People will say a lot of Chinese Americans will be like, I like, you know, authentic Chinese food, but that orange chicken from Panda Express that just kind of hits, it just hits something that's very special. So yeah, we have no issues with Panda Express.

SM:

I love that.

KF:

And one other thing I missed about Xi'an, because I was talking all. . .

SM:

Yeah, please.

KF:

. . . about the buns, but the noodles. I think a lot of people don't realize that Xi'an also is famous for their noodles. The noodle soups, they have this thing called Biang Biang Mian, right? Which is like. . .

SM:

Yeah. Which I love.

KF:

. . . thick, wide, handmade noodles. It's I would say it's like the beefier version of like a parfadelle, right? But with those delicious, braised meats, the broths have a lot of spice and aromatics with the celery and the cilantro. They do lots of braised meats that go with these noodles and they have different noodle types. And so that's also become actually more popular in the Bay Area now. A lot of. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . places are, are coming out.

SM:

I'm in LA now, but in London they have loads of those just serving that. So, it's really fantastic. But I . . .

KF:

Very satisfying.

SM:

. . . just a couple of things that I wanted to talk about and then I wanted to just talk about your book. So, I know when you cook for your father you're saying your father it's a legacy. So, you don't want to deny the legacy, but you have a lot more dishes than your father did as well. So, you've come in and you've changed it. And so how does he feel about the modern style against his style against the Chinese style? Because he's changed the dishes a lot and then you come and change them again. And some you probably don't because they're so famous. But how do you take that from him?

KF:

So, I feel like, my dad started out being very innovative. That's how House of. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . Nanking became popular, right? He realized that he could not serve traditional Shanghainese cuisine because people were not ready for it. And so, he decided to innovate on the ingredients that he loved here, like zucchini, which you wouldn't think because it's not a big vegetable and the in China, but he utilized it because he thought it was such a delicious ingredient to work with, started incorporating different things.

SM:

Yeah. It's really delicious, yes.

KF:

But because my dad has now aged, right? And my dad now what 38 years into the business. He's in his late 70s. When you grow older, your exposure and your ability to kind of adapt and make changes become harder, right? You become more like, I want to go back to the basics. I want. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . I crave sort of like the old style of things. And so that's where things can get a little challenging because I'm not quite at that level. I'm at the level right now of being very like excited and invigorated by all the exciting cuisines that we can pull influences from and kind of make changes.

SM:

So, tell me before you talk about that, tell me which kind of cuisines are you bringing food in from. I mean for me, everywhere I go now, they have Go Chu Jang from Korea. And that's just just shocks me. Yeah, we went to Uzbekistan and they'll have a thing of that in the supermarket. And you're going, That's fantastic. So, tell me about where you're drawing from for what you're doing.

KF:

So, I kinda comes randomly from my food experiences. I don't necessarily say, I want to focus on say Italian and I wanna bring influences. It's usually from a meal or dish that I've had and I think about, oh like this is absolutely fantastic. Is there a. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . way we can combine where I see similarities? So, I'll give you an example. I love Persian food. And they have this thing called tadig, right? Where the auto. . .

SM:

Yeah, absolutely.

KF:

. . . of the rice is crispy. I love it with gourmet sabzi, which it has like this acid from the Persian limes and the stews, just the combination of those flavors, and then they always give you the fresh herbs in the beginning with the raw onion, right? And so, I thought about that and there was one day w you know, we're known for making food off menu for people. There was a Persian family that came in. I was like, I'm gonna kind of pull in those flavors and ignore it.

SM:

Tell them tell. . . would you tell people what a Tadig is? Because again, people listening may not know. I mean I love Tadig, but tell people what it is.

KF:

It's essentially like a rice that's been cooked in a pot but the bottom of the pot, the rice actually crisps up, right? There's like oil incorporated, and the steaming method that they use causes a crispy bottom and a steamed fluffy rice on top.

SM:

Almost like a paella.

KF:

Yes. And in Chinese food, we have clay pot rice, right? Where the bottom is crispy, the top is soft as well. We enjoy it out of the pot, but in Persian culture they actually flip it over, they serve it to you in a restaurant. Sometimes they give you a portion of it and then you put something that has sauce over it that kinda picks up on that crispy, soft texturally. It's amazing. So, I decided I'm gonna make something inspired by those kind of flavors and textures. I made a crispy rice salad because we have puffed rice for sizzling rice soup, right?

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

I have this on stock already. So, I took soft steamed jasmine rice, combined it with the puffed rice, I did diced tomatoes with lemon, mint, cilantro, did I say the red onions, right? And then I mixed all that together with some turmeric and some pepper, soy, all this stuff, and it became this crispy rice salad that now is on the menu because people are like, this is delicious. It has the moistness from the tomato and some of that curry sauce that we have. And that's what inspires me, trying something and saying, this is so good. maybe I can make something like that for people that are from there. we have a lot of Indian customers to our place because a lot of them are vegetarian or vegan. And unlike what a lot of people think, Chinese food is not vegan friendly or vegetarian friendly, that's not true. We actually have. . .

SM:

Very yeah.

KF:

. . . so many vegetables to work with and we've got tofu, right? And we don't use dairy, we don't use butter. And so, I started creating a more robust vegetarian vegan menu. And I started with also this puffed rice thing. It's a soup. Sizzling rice soup is very popular. But the broth itself is very plain, I think, for a vegetarian. Sometimes it's actually meat-based, right? And so, they can't have that. And they can't have hot and sour soup, which they love. They always ask me, can you make it without the egg? And I'm like, well, it changes it, right?

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

The consistency becomes different. So, I kind of married what they like, which is they like that tangy hot and sour flavor. They also love curry and turmeric and ginger. So, I took that and turned it into a sizzling rice soup. So, our sizzling rice soup has turmeric. It's got ginger, so it's got the spice, the herbs, the acidity with the puffed rice. So, those are the kind of the ideas that I incorporate. And for my dad, my dad's like, what is this? This is not Chinese food. Raw onions, you would never put raw onions and cilantro and lemon into rice and it like kind of cold. I remember my dad was trying to take my rice salad and zap it. He was like, let's put it in the steamer and warm it up. I'm like, No, that completely changes it.

SM:

It must be great to have the that combination though between the two of you, and I think that's terrific. I, I've got a couple more questions and then I want to ask you some more fun questions that I always ask everyone here. I don't know about your children. W do you think they're gonna grow up and go in their separate ways outside the restaurants? Or do you think one or two all, all of them have to challenge to go and be part and to take this in totally different ways.

KF:

So, I have two, a six. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . year old son and an eight year old daughter. My daughter right now already is exhibiting sort of the same level of interest in food as I did. When my dad opened House of Nanking, I was seven. My daughter's eight now. And she loves actually coming to the restaurant and helping out. She always wants to help cook when I do Sunday supper, right? And these days she's almost like, Mom, I'm old enough to make decisions around how much salt to put in here, or she wants to make the sauce, right? She wants to kind of make. . .

SM:

I love that.

KF:

. . . the decisions. And we played this thing on Sunday. Called restaurant. Essentially my son and my daughter create a restaurant in our house and they have a little sign-in table. She writes the menu and they serve us. And I cook the meal with my daughter, but I let my daughter decide what's gonna be served, and we go buy the ingredients. So, she definitely exhibits all the interest around the business and the food aspect. My son, on the other hand, is not interested at all, right? He's the server. He's the server that's late to the host stand, so he's not gonna go in that space but I hope, that my daughter would want to follow in on the footsteps, but I'm gonna do it the way my dad did. I'm not gonna pressure to go do other things, but I won't pressure her to do the restaurant, right? My dad never made me feel like I need to take over or do anything with it. The only thing that we want to ensure is that they get exposed to the food. They get exposed to Chinese food as much as possible. Because you can't really innovate and create if you don't have a depth of knowledge around what you can work with, right? If it's. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . limited, then it's very hard to create.

SM:

Fantastic. And before we go on to the other questions, I'd love to talk about House of Nanking and I'm not just saying this, it's an extraordinary book and I've had it for a long time and I always look through it and it's just great. So, tell us about the House of Nanking and what made you write this book because it's stunning.

KF:

Gosh, decades long of a journey for me is something that I've always wanted to do. I've always wanted to write a cookbook with my dad. And initially it wasn't really to preserve legacy or really like write down the history of the restaurant. It came from the fact that customers would always say, you know, I'm not from here. I love this one dish. Can you please give us the recipe? Or people emailing us about it. And my dad would always say, nope, we're not sharing any recipes because if we do people won't come to our restaurant anymore, they'll just. . .

SM:

They will always come.

KF:

. . . and I was like, Dad, I don't think it works that way. But my dad always gets final say, right? So, I want to respect that. It is his restaurant, right? It's his baby. So, I don't want to ruffle any feathers. But it wasn't until a couple years back when we shot our reality show. It was like a docuseries about our family called Chef Dynasty, House of Fang all about just like this father-daughter dynamic. What is this like to run two restaurants together? And when the show came out, my dad saw it, and at the very last episode, they asked us to pull some of these old photos, right? And my dad didn't know how any of this was gonna come out, he didn't even know about these photos. I went and found them, sent it to the team, and they kind of like did a really short recap of like, this is how things started as these servers, right? And then they've built something quite remarkable, but through a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. And I could see in my dad's eyes when he saw that, he was kind moved by it and he said, wow, this is very special to be able to see what we've done and have a record of it. And that's when I went in, I was like, this is very small compared to what we can actually do. If we can control all the narrative, that's what a cookbook is for, right? This cookbook can be about that. It doesn't have to be just recipes. And that's when I knew when my dad said, yes, okay, we'll do it. As long as he doesn't have to do a ton of the work. I knew we had to do it in that angle, right? It's not so much about the recipes anymore. It's really more about the story behind this place. How did this institution get built? And what are the dishes that influenced my dad to become the chef that he is? And what are the dishes that influenced me to become the chef that I am in combination with the dishes that he created that put us on the map that are no longer on the menu. It's just, I think, like the perfect ode to or way to give thanks to what my parents have dedicated their whole lives to, but also as a way of just really thinking that type of generation. That generation is I feel one of the least appreciated because they just never complain. They don't ask for recognition, right? They're not the people chasing after a star. They, for all I know, most of them don't even know what a James Beard is, right? Like they really are just in it every single day because this is just about survive and even when they've accomplished success. My parents are there every single day. They work there like it's going to shut down the next day. You know, it's just like they're, is this kind of dedication that it's just it's hard for me to see that and not be able to give them that kind of recognition. So, the book was a way for me to say thank you without doing it in person because Chinese people culturally don't know how to do it. So just so many things wrapped into the purpose of this book.

SM:

It's House of Nanking published by Abrams and it's a wonderful, wonderful book, and I guarantee you everyone is going to love it. So, make sure you go and check it out, okay? But now, I'm gonna ask you some fun, questions that I ask everyone who comes in.

If Kathy was a meal what would it be? And it's just one meal anywhere in the world, anything.

KF:

If I was one meal, I would be a Shanghai Wonton.

SM:

Oh, why?

KF:

I'm a Shangh well, one I'm Shanghai, but a Shanghai Wonton to me is like just one perfect bite of everything. You've got starch, you've got vegetable, you've got protein, all into one delicious big bite. It's perfect. And our family kind of survived through all sorts of difficult times through something that I think was very simple and humble. It was also one of those things that we would all make as a family and then we'd freeze it and it would, last us for months, right? And you can always do little versions, change up the vegetable. Everybody has their own favorite type. And I think I'm, I'm kind of like that. I know even as a chef or a businesswoman or as a daughter or wife, how to accommodate in different ways. And I'm one package. I like I, I have it all.

SM:

That is fantastic. Okay.

SM:

If Kathy had to go back in time to any meal at any time, where would that be?

KF:

If I had to go back at any time, it would have to be our Lunar New Year dinners. So, this was back in the day when I had both my grandparents from both families, both sides, everybody was still alive. But that was the only time that we were able to get everybody on both sides together. And the whole family would cook together. Now you have to understand that's pretty rare because my parents are always at the restaurant, right? And so, it's very rare to get my parents cooking, my aunts, everybody in one space at one time. But for Lunar New Year, we always did that. And it was the best feast ever. Can you imagine? Like our family were all. . . .

SM:

Can imag, I can imagine.

KF:

. . . where we all know how to cook, right? And so, everyone had their contribution. My aunt made the best egg rolls. My uncle's an expert in dried Cantonese style dry seafood, right? And so, this was more. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KF:

. . . bountiful than restaurants. So, my mom would make her this was when shark fin was allowed in California. She would have her shark fin, we'd have abalone, we'd have a whole fish, lobster, crab, you know, clay pot rice. It was just the most abundant and most fun. It is all day we would be there and people would just cook and you'd eat as, people were cooking until you landed on the dinner, which was the final feast. And you would eat until midnight. Like you have to hit midnight.

SM:

Wow.

KF:

And we start at 10 AM. So, if I could go back, that would be the ultimate, the ultimate, ultimate meal.

SM:

Fantastic.

If Kathy had to go back in time to see the invention of anything in food, what would it be?

KF:

For me it would have to be the century old egg, pidan. I've always been very fascinated with that type of food, right? Let's talk about century egg. Everybody looks at it and they're like, wow, I can't believe you eat that, based on the way it looks. So, then it makes. . .

SM:

I love it.

KF:

. . . me think, right, how did the people back then decide that this is something that I could eat because we know that that had to have started from an accident. No one said, okay, let's just do this with an egg and this will happen, right? a lot of these inventions were like accidents. So, somebody must have left an egg, right, somewhere under the ash, and it was the perfect combination of all these ingredients, pulled it out and decided to crack it open and look at it and say, and when you look at it, it doesn't look like something you can eat. It, it you look at it and you think this has gone bad, this is dangerous, somebody's gonna die eating it. But someone said, let's try it. And once they did and discovered that it was actually delicious, then they had to reverse engineer that and figure out well, what combination happened? What happened underground that caused this transformation? It would have been fascinating to just watch them reverse engineer and try to figure these things out. And I, I feel like I've always thought that was interesting because I grew up with my god god grandparents. They're from Ningbo and my parents couldn't afford any nannies, daycare. So, I would be in their house and they Ningbo cuisine is known for fermented and stinky foods. Okay, stinky foods. And so, they have a thing called stinky, which is a stinky winter melon. And I grew up watching them having a cut winter melon that they would salt and they put this kind of moldy bok choy leaf or something on top. And it would just slowly grow mold on top. Just sitting in the kitchen floor. And then when they say it's ready to eat, they would scrape off the mold. And it would reveal on the bottom the winter melon. You can tell it's all soft at this point. It's not hard, right? Very soft, kind of almost translucent. And that they're like, it's perfect. And it stinks, right? It smells bad because it's got moldy. They cut that part off and they steam it and they bring it out and they put some sesame oil and they put some salt and a little MSG, chilli oil and you eat it and you're like, this is delicious. You know, and it's just like, how? How did these creations happen?

SM:

It's amazing.

Well, thank you for that and thank you for everything that you've answered so far. In the end I wanted you just to let people know how to find you. So, you know, if you can read your Substack if you have it, Twitter, well not Twitter, X now all these things, please let people know because as you're talking to me now, I'm sure that's how you talk to everyone and please just let people know.

KF:

Yes, so, they can find me on Instagram. I'm Chef Kathy Fang on Instagram, that's my handle. I'm not that active on Substack or X. It's just Instagram social media. I put everything on there from recipes or talk about what's happening. I do a lot of home easy tips to what you can make at home that's healthy. I'm a huge, huge person on Chinese tonics and Chinese vegetables. And so, if you want to just know what's going on, just go on to my Instagram, Chef Kathy Fang. And the book, the get the book they have to. . .

SM:

Thank you. Yes, well that's what we're gonna do put the book in terms of the pictures, so let's do that now. But the Kathy, thank you very much. That was really superb, and apart from anything else, I'm now hungry. Maybe I'll have to go maybe I'll have to go and eat some Panda Express. I don't know.

KF:

Get some Chinese takeout.

SM:

. . . and some Chinese takeout, but thank you very much.

KF:

Thank you so much for doing this, Simon. This is so fun.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www.EatMyGlobe.com where we’ll be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

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Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE: Things You Didn’t Know You Didn’t Know About Food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help both with the editing of the transcripts and her essential help with the research.