Eat My Globe

Interview with Ted Allen

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

Hi everybody and welcome to Eat My Globe, a podcast about things you didn't know you didn't know about food. And for those of you who don't know Ted Allen, and for shame if you don't, Ted Allen is the host of Food Network hit show, Chopped, which has aired nearly, I don't believe it, a thousand episodes and earned two James Beard Awards. Amazing. Previously, he was a cast member on the Emmy winning OG, Queer Eye, which I used to watch a lot when I was in England. I love that. It was on Bravo here. His career began in journalism, first as a reporter, then an editor and writer for Chicago magazine, and finally with a decade plus stint at Esquire, where he was a finalist for a national magazine award. I know Ted, not only because of Chopped and Queer Eye, but also, like me, he's a fan of British and American music in the nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties, which is what we say we'll talk about what the young people say on the socials. Now he's one of my favourite people on the Food Network. Ladies and gentlemen, the one and only, Ted Allen. It's so great to see you.

Ted Allen (“TA”):

It's great to see you too, Simon.

SM:

Before we go on to talk about the questions, and I know we've talked about that a lot, I'd love to know, what you have in store. You, you are you gonna do a book? I think you should do another book, more TV, whatever's going on.

TA:

I've got a book in my head, but I don't know that, that, the for the whole first half of my career was spent doing reporting and writing. And the only and I love the reporting and I love the interviewing, and I love the digging. My favorite part of writing is, as we said in magazine writing, the crafting of the lead, the opener of the piece.

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

I love writing the lead. I spend a great deal of I'll spread all of my notes all over the dining room table and I'll think what is the moment from our conversations, my interviews, that just gels the essence of the person I'm writing about or the story that I'm writing about. And I, I put a great deal of time into writing that lead. And then the entire rest of the writing process, I can't stand it. I hate it. It's like cleaning out the biggest garage and the biggest mansion dwelled in by hoarders for decades. It's so difficult to do that. I'd much rather keep doing TV especially when almost all of what I've done in TV has been just showing up and being me. I've had s Chopped has a script which I usually edit angrily in the morning and fix. . .

SM:

Ha ha.

TA:

. . . things about it that I don't like, such as the use of plucky to describe someone. A. . .

SM:

That's. . .

TA:

. . . rather antique word and not a word I would ever use. But I also and I also use that actually that you know what I like more than writing is editing. And I really like taking a piece of writing and tightening it up and making it more impactful and getting rid of adverbs and other flab and garbage. That really makes me happy. So maybe I should be an editor again. I don't know. I love doing that. But for. . . .

SM:

You, you should be because. . .

TA:

We've just finished airing this summer a special sort of spin-off on Chopped called Chopped Castaways. And we've got more Chopped in the offing soon that I'm looking really looking forward to doing because you, you and I were chatting offline about the our relationship with our crews, and I've always been blessed with an incredible first AD. Our first AD Sean King, and he and I fully fifty at least half our communication is completely nonverbal. Hand signals, and the number of fingers that he holds up. And I know exact, we both know exactly what the other's talking about. And I know every TV show or movie crew talks about them being it being like family, but it truly is in our over our sixteen years of shooting.

SM:

Yeah,  I know that it's been going on a lot. And that reminds me as much as when I did Camp Cutthroat years ago. And that. . .

TA:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . was we had all the crew and we went up to one of the hills. I can't remember exactly which place it was now. And Alton was there dressed in scout uniform and all of this. It was those are really great. So, I think that would be fantastic. But what about events and things? 'Cause I know when we did events, you did one at the Potato Expo and that was just great. So, are you gonna do any more events like those?

TA:

I would love to. Actually, I rem one of, one of the events I did not long before the Potato Expo, which I was so delighted to be included in, was the Produce Marketing Association, and they asked me to make something with a dessert with avocado and blueberry for some reason. And I made an, an it was and it was really quite a fun assignment, and I'd never made a dessert with avocados before. I made an avocado mousse with a blueberry would it be a coulis or would it be a, it was a sauce with a blueberry sauce. Quite beautiful, beautiful color. Lovely, fluffy, and I'd never thought about using an avocado before in dessert. so these are the produce people sort of appear they're kind of like a I guess they're benevolent. . .

SM:

Ha ha ha.

TA:

. . . think tank that come up with that help introduce new types of fruits and vegetables into the American market and give people ways to sell them and marketing, market them.

SM:

Fantastic. And hopefully then we've got to do another things together because, I'm going off tomorrow to a an event and so we've got to do that together. But. . .

TA:

Love that.

SM:

. . . I wanted to talk to you about some of the things you've done on Chopped and in terms of the ingredients, because that's what we talk about. . .

TA:

Okay.

SM:

. . . on here. We talk about the history of ingredients and so let's start, shall we? So. . .

TA:

Why not?

SM:

. . . okay. So, the first one is Asafoetida. And I know that because I often use this in Indian food, my father was from India and I have a lot of that interest in me. So, tell me about that.

TA:

Sure, Asafoetida, they,  it has lots of different variations on that spelling too, by the way. it's a latex gum that's exuded from the rhizome or the taproot of the Ferula, which is a perennial herb from the carrot family, used a lot in Iran, Afghanistan, China, certainly Indian cooking. But I'm gonna let, I'm gonna leave that part up to you because you know that much more much better than I do. It's very strong aroma and in fact is the is where the word fetid came from, in English. . .

SM:

Oh really?

TA:

. . . which is rather fun. in some cultures known affectionately as devil's dung.

SM:

In Germany, I believe it's known as Devil's Dung, which is, which. . .

TA:

Which why are we talking about that when we're talking about food ingredients? I don't know. It may be it's one of those things that you love it or maybe you don't. Or maybe you're or maybe you're ignorant of it. And I don't know because I don't know that ingredient super well. It's not something I've. . .

SM:

And it's. . .

TA:

. . . used.

SM:

. . . it's used primarily in what I in Bengal we use it because a lot of people don't eat garlic or onions. So, they use this. . .

TA:

They're they're for in some cultures there that's forbidden, I believe.

SM:

Yeah, so they, they'll use this and that represents some of the flavours. But what would you say the flavor kind of tastes like when you've tried it?

TA:

It's got that, there's, it's, there's a pronounced what makes me think of alliums. There is a garlicky nature to it, or at least some of th some of those notes. I know that your father probably used it in curries or perhaps. . .

SM:

Yeah. Always.

TA:

. . . or in spice mixes like chaats like masal chaat masala. Again, this is something more for you and Maneet to be talking about rather than myself. And there are medicinal benefits as well, or at least in some cultures, so they believe, or so they. . .

SM:

And what, what are those medicinal benefits do you know?

TA:

. . . it's thought to be good for digestion and good for your respiratory system.

SM:

I would use it for a chicken curry and I'd add a little bit of that in there because it gives it this bright flavour. And the other thing that I would always use it for is if I make a vegetable curry, I'd always put a tiny bit, and that brightens up the flavour. When we use it in India we always have it as a powder.

TA:

Yes, the yellow powder, right?

SM:

Yeah, and I always have it I've had the same pot for about this big that I've used in about eight years because it's not something I use a lot in, but I always use a half teaspoon and that in it there.

TA:

A half teaspoon is not very much. It's not a large. . .

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

. . . amount. And I imagine when you make a curry, you're making a pretty good pot of it.

SM:

And you're using half a teaspoon at the most, I always say, because you can immediately taste it.

TA:

I've also read that the Asafoetida it has a t keeps for a very, very, very, very, very long time. It's not it's not. . .

SM:

Always. That that's yeah.

TA:

. . . it's not volatile like so many other spices. We're when we those of us on these networks talking about food, we're always reminding people to keep their spices up to date because we've all gone in our mother's cabinets and found, dried basil, which first of all you should never buy in anyway, that's. . .

SM:

I do.

TA:

. . . twenty eight years old.

SM:

I do want to say though, some of the dishes I'm a great fan of dried spices at a certain time because a lot of the Italian dishes that they made later in the year when it w basil wasn't growing, I always say basil, not the but they but they would always use. . .

TA:

That's fine. You're a Brit, you can do that. You, you don't have a choice.

SM:

. . . because this is a good thing to start talking about spices when we talk about some of the rest of them. For me, the dried spices, and I'm not talking about the ground coriander or ground cumin or any of that, but the ground spices, tarragon, those are things that they used to put into stews because they couldn't get the fresh. So, a lot of times they used to use basil, a lot of tarragon, oregano. There's another one that I'm pronouncing strangely, but you always used to use that. So, I do think, and this is a useful one to do, that there is a reason to use dried herbs. It's not now where people are can get herbs anywhere, but there are times when you need to. . . I don't buy them regularly, but I will always go and buy a tarragon because that's so much intensified for a stew or so much intensified for a tarragon sauce. So, for me, I do think that there's a reason for buying dried spices.

TA:

Oh, I completely agree. I don't generally think that drying dried basil is a very good idea. Because it doesn't taste like anything like to me, it doesn't taste anything like a, a fresh basil leaf, which we can get anytime we want in the in the United States. Although another thing I noticed this summer, because I'm a huge fan, I'm a huge tom, I'm a tomato maniac. It's the only. . .

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

. . . vegetable I grow. Because the only way to get a good tomato is to grow your own. and there's not a store in the world I've ever been to that sells a tomato that's worth anything to me. So, I always grow it. And I also realized this summer that I had to grow the basil as well because otherwise it only keeps for two or three days in the fridge and I'd. . .

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

. . . be buying it again and again and again and again all summer long for four dollars a bunch, only that needed two days later. So, I just, I've kept the plant going all summer.

SM:

Yeah, you, you, I've got a plant, well we used to have a plant with basil growing and it's just inside and it was so lovely. It was one of these like air pod things that has. . .

TA:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . thyme and all of that. So, it was great. And I think this is great.

TA:

Wonderful.

SM:

Let's talk about one that I have tried and I know that area because this is not from Ethiopia. I haven't been to Ethiopia yet, but I've been to a lot of that kind of area of Africa. Teff. Tell us about. . .

TA:

Teff.

SM:

. . . Teff.

TA:

Teff is an ancient whole grain, mainly from as you mentioned, Ethiopia and Eritrea. It's a little seed. it's a little grain, it's about the size of a poppy seed. As such, it is not usually milled well unless you're making flour from it. It is an absolute nutritional powerhouse. Another of our as we media folks like to call them, superfoods. . .

SM:

Ha ha ha.

TA:

. . . with a great deal of nutritional content in it. Rich, nutty flavor, in Ethiopia it is ground into flour and used as the primary ingredient of injera, which is that soft, spongy Ethiopian bread that you use in lieu of cutlery generally to scoop up soups or to scoop up stews.

SM:

Have you ever had Injera and Ethiopian food, which I absolutely adore? I absolutely love it.

TA:

We used, we used when especially when I lived in Chicago Barry and I Barry and I lived in Chicago for thirteen years. And there was a w there are many wonderful Ethiopian restaurants there and we would we would eat that eat there all the time. I can almost remember the name of the restaurant, but not quite.

SM:

And what would you use it for? What kind of stews, what kind of curries? Because it like you said, it comes out like a almost like a placemat almost, and all the things of it, and for me that's just it's gorgeous. But tell me what sort of curries or what kind of stews or what kind of you'd have that on.

TA:

Well not to be so presumptuous as to call this foreshadowing, but it might be nice, very nice with goat stew. Although also I think that's something that so many gosh. Mama Desta's Red Sea. That's the name of the restaurant. Mama. . .

SM:

Oh wow.

TA:

. . . Desta's Red Sea. There are lots of nice, very spicy stews that I remember from that restaurant and I remember and what was the I'm thinking the I had friends in that would often get the dish, Rijsttafel, which would on a big platter that rotates and you can get to all of it. But I'm not even sure that's Ethiopian. That was in Amsterdam.

SM:

It ca. . .  it came from lots of different pla. . . I tried that when I was in the Netherlands and they're the ones who created the Rijsttafel. And. . .

TA:

Yes. Yes.

SM:

. . . I remember in fact even last year when we went to the Netherlands on the way back to London, we went and had a Rijsttafel. So that's rice table and for that they had all kinds of things. That's more Indonesian, I think.

TA:

Oh right, you are. That's what it is. I knew I was close. I would enjoy having an injera with some kind of a spicy red meat stew, something kind of a braise that's been going for a long, long, long time and has really broken down and become tender. Where all. . . almost all my favorite cuts of beef and pork are the I like pork shoulder or pork butt, which you cook forever until it breaks it down and is really rich with flavor. And something like that injera is nice. Now that this dovetails though into a personal problem I have, which is that I hate getting sticky stuff on my hands when I'm. . .

SM:

Ha ha.

TA:

. . . eating. You know how some people say they love a hot, messy sandwich? I detest a hot, messy sandwich. I hate it.

SM:

Me too. And I'm exactly the same. If I've got my hands covered in and the even with Indian food, which traditionally you eat with the rice and use your hands and it's very comforting that way, I always use what the in the Filipinos use, a fork and a spoon because I don't. . .

TA:

Huh.

SM:

. . . I can't deal with it.

TA: It might be a phobia. Maybe you could I don't know what you call it. I'm not generally a super persnickety finicky person about. I'm clean. I wash my hands constantly.

SM:

Ha ha ha.

TA:

But I don't I don't think this is a disorder. I don't like ev I love ribs and I love barbecue sauce and I it's really hard for me to eat them e even though I kinda do it all the time 'cause I love them a lot. But I'm constantly s wiping off and cleaning up and anyway.

SM:

No, but this is, this is great because what we're getting is you. And by talking about these dishes and all of this, that's what we're getting new. So don't worry about sharing anything that you feel obliged to do, obviously. But that. . .

TA:

I think we've just cracked the code on the whole hoax of your career, Simon, is that you're just using these food ingredients as a pretext to for us to have. . .

SM:

I am. . .

TA:

. . . a good time hanging out.

SM:

Well, that's what we do and that's why I start people with, Asafoetida and then we lead onto spices and we start it with Teff and then that leads into other things where you we've talked about how you hate getting your hands greasy. And these things are really important, I think, to how people live. So, I hope so anyway. you've spent a lot of time going to Ethiopian restaurants and tell me about that. And so that's what I try to do when I'm doing these.

TA:

Well, I think that's wonderful. And by the way, since Teff is an ingredient that might. . . . I'm from Columbus, Ohio. So, I'm a Midwestern boy. An ingredient like Teff would not have been familiar on my family's table in Columbus, Ohio. But these days, and also aside from making the Injera bread, it's also good for a breakfast porridge. And it's not quite as exotic as it may sound to some people because Bob's Red Mill sells it now. So, you can get it any grocery store any good grocery store that carries the bo, the Bob's Red Red Mill brand.

SM:

Yeah, which is I love Bob's Red Mill and I buy almond flour, which I use in Chicken Korma. . .

TA:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . which I use in there, which is the original dish of that was really white and it was brought in by the Mughal emperors and it was supposed to be white with gold leaf and amazing stuff. So, Bob's. . . I don't have a what do you call it, an endorsement from them, I promise, but I love their, all their things are so well thought of, all their ingredients that they have and all their powders and all the all these things they have. Okay.

TA:

Well, I don't have an endorsement from Bob's Red Mill either, but this might be what gets us one.

SM:

We should get one.

TA:

Yeah, Bob go Bob.

SM:

The two of us together. That would be a good idea, actually, the two of us together.

TA:

He introduced a lot of people to a lot of products they might not have. . . I'm talking about Americans. A lot of products that they might they would not have found in the store back in the day.

SM:

Yeah, and I think that's very, very important because I didn't when I was in the UK, I didn't use a lot of cornmeal, for example. But I bought it here and it I bought a small pack of it and it's really delicious. So, all these things and that's the thing as well, people give the supermarkets, a bad time. But a lot of the supermarkets will have a range of Bob Mills or a range of their own versions of these and they're really great stuff.

Okay, let's change it again. And I don't know if I'm pronouncing this properly. Shmen and it's not. . .

TA:

It's raining Smen. It's raining Smen.

SM:

Ha ha ha.

I knew this would be the funnest. Is it can you say the funnest? Maybe you can.

TA:

Well you can. You can say whatever you want. You're asking whether it's correct? Why is an English man asking a midwestern American what's correct English?

SM:

That, that's true. Well because it's Moroccan. So, we we're having this Shmen. I hope it's right. Moroccan. . .

TA:

Shmen, would you sh you would put a schm in front of that?

SM:

Sh shmen Smen.

TA:

Men.

SM:

Smen. Maybe I'm putting a. . .

TA:

Okay. I don't know.

SM:

. . . maybe I'm putting a sh because I'm, I'm going for a lot of Jewish sandwiches right now and they're putting a schmear.

TA:

You know now na yeah, exactly. Now you sound like you're from Brooklyn yourself, putting a schmear on your bagel.

SM:

Ha ha ha.

TA:

I'm hanging out in Maine and I find myself s talking like Park the Car in Dark Harbor.

SM:

I love being in Maine, so I'm. . .  I won't ask where you are, but I love that part of the world. Now Smen then. Smen Moroccan butter. I. . .

TA:

Indeed.

SM:

I've had this when I've been in Morocco and Algeria. And so. . .

TA:

Algeria.

SM:

. . . so tell me about it.

TA:

I've not but I have been to a port in Morocco, but I've not been to Algeria or Tunisia. I just used to and I made that reference because I used to listen to a bunch of jazz.

SM:

Ha ha ha.

TA:

Smen, as the as at least to an American eyeball, it looks like the word Smen. There may be a better pronunciation, I'm sure. salted fermented butter from North Africa, used in cooking in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia and probably other parts less well known. This is salted fermented butter made from the milk of sheep or goats or a combination of the two. The butter is brought to a boiling point, it's skimmed, a lot like making clarified butter in French cooking.

SM:

Oh okay.

TA:

And then it's aged in sealed containers back before they had more modern technology, traditionally was buried in the ground, to keep it cool. . .

SM:

Mm.

TA:

. . . you'd bottle it, you'd seal it and then you'd put it underground where it's not so hot. and many cultures have stored thing stored things that way, of course, often in clay, earthenware jars and such.

SM:

Yeah, and I've been to talking about that recently to people because obviously in Georgia, we went to Georgia and they buried their wine in a huge vat and that was buried and wax on the top and all of that and that was just left for ages. In Korea, we see the kimchi and I still remember one of the things I discussed recently was when after the war people went in to get the mines and one in five of what they dug up was actually kimchi bottles that they buried.

TA:

Well, it I'd much rather dig up some kimchi than a mine. It's much less dangerous, well, depending on the strength of the kimchi, I suppose.

SM:

But it shows you what people used and what's the word I'm looking for?

TA:

Ingenuity.

SM:

Ingenuity, that's what they're looking for. And so tell me. . .

TA:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . about the Smen how did they buried that in barrels and put it in the thing? And is that still how they do it now?

TA:

I don't know exactly what they bury it in, but I'm quite sure that is not what they do to well, I'm sure maybe in small villages in the middle of nowhere in these countries, or in desert countries w and also places where they don't have refrigerators sitting around, they probably do that. Absolutely. In some of the other ingredients that we talk about today, we're gonna touch on some issues of, basically someone who lives in an affluent country and has all the electricity that they want and all the technology that they want. They're it's going right in the sub zero refrigerator, you lucky wealthy person.

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

Many of the best tasting foods that you and I have ever eaten are the, are the cheapest cuts of the oldest, most bedraggled looking animal on the farm. We're not, I'm. . .

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

. . . not. . . I don't even like Filet Mignon. That’s not a cut I would ever choose of beef. But here. . .

SM:

I and. . .

TA:

. . . we're talking about countries where beef alone is much too expensive and consumes too much food and water and to make it even economically viable to raise them.

SM:

When you go around you'll see that beef isn't so popular in, we mentioned Korea again. Beef isn't popular because of what you said it takes too much to raise in America and in Britain and in France and they will raise it because they have the money. But a lot of places don't. And I think that's a really important thing.

I found out that it was created in Maghreb, the area of Maghreb anyway. And they said the person who I spoke to about it said it tasted like blue cheese. Now I used to have it being mixed with couscous. So, if people do see it in one of these stores, maybe if you go to a health food store or you go to Sprouts or something like that that's got it, it's worth trying. And I have tried it and it's definitely worth trying. But let's talk about. . .

TA:

We we. . .

SM:

. . . some of the others because these are the. . .

TA:

Sure, sure.

SM:

. . . these are the two that I think people get worried about, shall we say, if you're in the West? And I don't think they should. So, the first one, and it's called known as the King of Fruits. So, I absolutely adore it. And because the smell is unusual for people from the West anyway, they don't get it. So, tell me about Durian.

TA:

Durian. Well, I do have a good story to tell about durian. Durian is and is known in many co. . .  in many Asian cultures as the king of fruits. It is an extremely large fruit and it's spiky. And it can be when I say large, it can be the size of what most of us Americans would know as a watermelon. It's about the size and weight of a watermelon. you can get them smaller and younger and you can get them bigger as well, beloved in many, many places in Asia. And when I it is indeed very and when, when you when you get a machete and you cut it in half, because that's what you need to do so, it is very, very odiferous. It is very fragrant. A lot of people in Western culture, including chefs, including people on judges on Chopped, including myself, have frequently described it as the worst thing you could ever smell in your life. That you could compare the smell to that of rotting meat.

SM:

Ha ha

TA:

And even in Asia, now I'm I want to ask you a question about this. When you ride, when you take the subway in Bangkok, there are stickers. Like in New York City, the stickers say no smoking, no drinking, no radio playing. In Bangkok it says no smoking, no radio, no durian. There's liter. . .  literally a graphic picture of d a durian with the, forbidden.

SM:

And in, and in hotels. . .

TA:

Sign on. . .

SM:

. . . as well. So now some people do think well that's just touristic. It's not. So, they don't want it brought into an enclosed place. And so usually outside you can cut it and yes, it has a smell. But that smell, once you get used to it, is actually fine, I think. And yes, it has a smell, but it's not as wild as people think. But if you go there for the first time and you cut it, yes, it's going to be fairly strong.

TA:

I also wonder yeah, it's initially very strong. A lot of things when you open a can of tuna or something, it and it at first. . .

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

. . . it is really strong. I wonder if that your experience of that smell changes when you've been eating it for a minute.

SM:

Some of the things I've eaten and one of them is called pulot, which is a kind of dessert where they leave it for a little while and a skin forms and you serve it with rice. So, it's almost like a mango sticky rice, which is a wonderful thing anyway. And that. . .

TA:

Mm. Yes.

SM:

. . .is just this wonderful kind of glutinous fruit with and they mix it with coconut milk and they mix it with pandan leaves which is something that I eat a lot as well. Pandan leaves and that is one of the most glorious desserts, particularly in Malaysia, but it's around that area. If you haven't tried that, anyone listening, you have to go and try it. And you will find it in Malaysian restaurants here.

I don't think we had it we had Malaysian over the weekend before last and having spent some time in Malaysia that I really believe that and Filipino food are my two favorites, in that area. And so do go and try it. But have you ever, have you actually ever tried it?

TA:

No. And that is the reason that's a pr that's that I don't know why. But Lord knows it's been in our studio enough times. I wanna. .

SM:

Ha, ha.

TA:

. . . I had an epiphany the last time we were in production and I owe a whole continent an apology because we have been talking about this from such a through such a western lens and through such a western nose on our show for so long. And I if I could just take a moment to tell you a little anecdote.

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

We were doing a tournament called Spin It to Win It, I spun a wheel just like Jeopardy, only ours was vertical, landed on a dollar amount, and the chefs had the chance to build up a bank account that they could then use to bid against one another on either for the ingredient they really wanted. And we Chopped producers, the Chopped, Chopped would have two ingredients that we considered premium and special, and then two ingredients that we considered really difficult. And there was a woman competing on that show that amassed a really big bank account. She was doing a gr really well on the show, and she was just ready to go home with a lot of money, more than you normally make on our show. And she then got into a bidding war with a guy that she that was competing against her, and she made him spend and spend and spend tons and tons, spent thousands of dollars of his own money to get the ingredient that he wanted. So, she kind of wiped him out. And then the next move she made was she took the ingredient that nobody else wanted because she desperately wanted it, and that was the Durian. She was from I want to say it was from sh I think she might have been from Malaysia or it could have been Indonesia. I'm not sure. But she said, when I was growing up, my father would take us kids, we'd go down to the market, we would buy a whole bunch of durian fruits with the stems still attached, would make made it easier to carry. And we would go home and we would spread newspapers all over the floor, and we would hack those durian open and we would stuff ourselves until we couldn't eat anymore. And. . .

SM:

Ha ha.

TA:

. . . I thought, my gosh, this person from Columbus, Ohio is denigrating something that millions, billions of people on the other in another part of the world revere as the king of fruits. I apologize for that. And I learned something. I think that's an important thing for somebody in my job to know. That was wrong of me. That was wrong of us.

SM:

I think that's. . . if nothing else comes out of this conversation, I think that is one of the keys. Because we go to all kinds of areas and they'll eat salted fish or they'll eat sort of stuff that they realise is going to be difficult for other people to understand, but they love it and that's the key. If you go to Iceland and they have Hákarl, which is a basking shark that they do all kinds of things to get it to all these things they go to and yet they love it. All you have to do is admire and try and have some of the dishes. And that's what I do. My thing is go everywhere, eat everything. That's what I always do, apart from obviously things that I'm allergic to, one or two things. But that's the key for me, and we go everywhere in the world we've been, a lot so far, hundred nearly a hundred countries, and that's the key. So, I think that's really important.

And it's true when you talk about the next one, which is something that I eat all the time, if I'm in India or if I'm in Jamaica or if I'm in. . . which is goat. And I well I'd love to know what you think of goat, because for me it's relatively easy to go and have goat. You've got to cook it a different way and all of that. But I'd love to know what you think about goat. Because that it's not that it's. . .

TA:

Good. Yes.

SM:

. . . not that easy to go and buy it in the US.

TA:

That's true. especially in places like this. I'm in a rather, a relative, a relatively remote part of the northeast in the US. I'm not finding goat in the store at all. well, if you look at some look at my buddy Scott Conant, who loves nothing more than to cook the leg of a young goat, a Cabrito. He does a long, long, long, long roast of that. And it's a red meat. But we're talking about and it's a tough cut, obviously, as most legs are, in the food world. something that takes a long time, not a great ingredient to get on Chopped.

We play that trick on people so many for so long, for so many times we'll give you an actual an entire leg of lamb. And these French based chefs are, are so steeped in tradition and lore that they want they really want to see if they can try to cook that leg of lamb in a twenty-minute round. Good luck with that, pal. Goat's great. Goat is an animal unlike cattle, which we were discussing a moment ago, that do not need a ton of food, that can eat practically anything, don't consume a ton of water. They're much better for the planet than an animal like a cow, as sweet as cows are. I've read actually that goat is the most widely consumed meat in the world. Certainly. . .

SM:

Yes, it is. Yeah.

TA:

. . . certainly in the Arab world, it's a it could it's a meat a meat that could be halal. But it's a wonderful product when it's handled correctly. And I would be delighted to have a big I especially if Scott Conant is gonna cook it for me

SM:

Yeah, and I've done that roasted leg. The other thing that I also do is the Jamaican they call it curry goat rather than the other way around. But their key is allspice in the mix because they had this thing called all the British named this little seed allspice because it was the smell of cinnamon and nutmeg and all of this. And they use that in it and it is just and they let it braise and braise and braise and braise and braise for a long, long time and then when you go and eat it, it tastes like heaven. It really absolutely does. And you can serve it with rice and all of this, but it tastes like heaven. It really does. And obviously being from India, we also cook a lot of curries. We when people ask get lamb, or ask for lamb in India, they don't really get lamb, they'll always get goat and that just tastes so gorgeous. The other thing though I wanted to ask about is cheese because I get I often get, Chevre, the local goat's. . .

TA:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . cheese, and I do a dish even now and it's really interesting, I do a dish, an appetizer where I get dates and it's fairly well known, but you cut them. You stuff the inside with goat's cheese, you put. . .

TA:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . a sage leaf on top, and you wrap bacon around it. Now, obviously, with bacon wrapped around anything, that's gonna be good. Even if you wrap me in bacon, I think people would but the that's the first time a lot of people are eating this really lovely goat's cheese. and then they suddenly go, that's lovely, where can I get it? And I go, even in any supermarket now you can buy it.

TA:

Any supermarket.

SM:

So, any supermarket.

TA:

It's that's goat cheese is everywhere.

SM:

Yeah. So, if anyone's listening and wants to go and try goat meat, I actually buy it and it's very lucky for me that I have just a few streets away, I have an Indian go market and they always sell in their butcher's counter goat meat. And you can get them to take it from the bone and have it in little cubes that you use for curry, or you can buy the whole leg. So do go to places like that and try and get it because if you haven't tasted it before, it's really delicious, but you do need to cook it for a long time. So, it's really but. . .

TA:

Yes.

SM:

. . . absolutely delicious.

Okay. And the last one. I think we both wanted to put on because of the use of the name or the original use of the name. So why don't you tell us what that is?

TA:

Sure. Makrut lime. Makrut lime.

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

The citrus formerly known as Kaffir lime in many countries. I have talked about this on Chopped before, about the need to get away from that term. A word that I've seen I've heard described as one of the most offensive in the entire English language, which is saying something, roughly translates in a Muslim world to infidel. It means that somebody is someone claiming to be Muslim but isn't living up to Muslim ideals. Used by colonizers from Portugal, Dutch, Portuguese and British colonizers to colonizers to demean and dehumanize people of color. It's just a nasty word. It's a big N word kind of a word.

SM:

That’s exactly what it is. That's. . .

TA:

For a lovely ingredient that can do so much.

SM:

Why do you think that it ri. . . it kept that? It is like calling something the N word.

TA:

Yeah. I think the answer's really simple. We just didn't know. I think we were not aware. I don't speak Arabic. I doubt that you speak Arabic. And we somebody's gotta tell you this to I don't nobody intended do it to be that offensive when you learn that. But I've read stories about people from Arab cultures and who do speak Arabic who have seen that word in print on packaging or like on a little s sign in the grocery store, on special, N word limes.

SM:

We, we . . .

TA:

What would your reaction be if you walked into an American supermarket. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

TA:

. . . and saw N word limes on sale? Yeah.

SM:

But we used to see words describing people of colour in not using the N word, but using other words and they were. . .  and at the time, we were given there's one word I won't mention, but it was began with a G and it was the British word I think of describing people of colour and I still remember my father being an Indian guy used to. . . he was never allowed. . .  he's a surgeon, but he was never allowed to stay at a certain area for too long because on those flats he used to stay in the apartments, they always said no N word, no W word. . .

TA:

Mm.

SM:

. . . they used to call and it's hard to describe it without describing the words. And in England we actually used to use the K word for limes and stuff so it's really interesting that we should at least talk to people and say and even now if I looked online it's always the K word. So. . .

TA:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . now just from this podcast again, if it's nothing else from this podcast, and I'm sure it will be, we had a bit of an odd start with Asafoetida 'cause I was giving it a hard time as well. But from those two, we should even if everyone looks at the thing and gets everyone who creates those limes, they should stop doing that. But let's talk about the Makrut leaves because those have a flavour. . .

TA:

Yes.

SM:

. . . and they are so delicious, those leaves that you put in at the end and I use them in my pickles. I always put them in if I'm making a kind of an Indian style pickle because we don't tend to use Makrut leaves there, but I put them in yeah.

TA:

I like to I like to make a tea with Makrut leaves.

SM:

That's interesting.

TA:

That's really quite lovely. And I save the leaves. I used to have a lime. It wasn't well actually the ones I used most of the time were not Makrut leaves. They were just regular lime leaves. But I even so, I had a tree I had a lime tree for years growing in my house in indoors. I don't have the climate for, for growing citrus, but indoors and it would grew really well and I would save the leaves in the freezer and they kept pretty well and I would make tea with it. A lovely it turned it out to a sort of a gold lovely golden color. A lot of oils in those leaves that make really lovely tea. And now I'm. . .

SM:

Oh well.

TA:

. . . telling an English guy about tea.

SM:

Yes. Don't start. I always. . .

TA:

Ha, ha.

SM:

. . . have, I always have this tea called Taylor's Yorkshire Gold. Go and try it. It's a bag and it is a typical British tea, almost English breakfast, but so gorgeous. Go and buy some. You can get it in every English type store or whatever, and it's really fantastic and I've been drinking it for years now, so go and have it. Okay.

TA:

Right. I will.

SM:

Which one of these ingredients would you like in your kitchen, do you think? Is there any one?

TA:

Wait, so okay, which one which would I want to have on Chopped?

SM:

Or either on Chopped or in your kitchen. Or both.

TA:

If it were in my kitchen, I would say I'd love to have goat. If I were in the Chopped kitchen, I would not want to have goat at all.

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

There are ways around the whole, tough cut, you could cut against the grain and things such grinding and such. But don't try to roast or cook a goat leg in the Chopped kitchen in thirty minutes. Just don't. It's the physics. Time and space, dude, you are not gonna change time the, well, the laws of time and space.

Honestly, I probably ought to do some penance regarding the sins I've committed against the king of fruits, the durian. One thing's for sure, I think that yeah, let me go with durian. Not just because I owe Asia an apology. I've and I've already given them one, but Durian it could be a truly perfect ingredient on Chopped because you get cut it open, get a tiny bit of it, and put it into an ice cream or something, it's going to come through. Believe me, they'll taste. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

TA:

. . . it. You'll taste that mystery ingredient. yeah, you will. but it could also be mellowed out with being mixed into an actual custard, the custard that you make for the ice cream. and there are other flavors that might be able to diminish it enough to keep it just kind of a background note. I think I'm going durian. Maybe durian. . .

SM:

Yeah, and. . .

TA:

. . . and honey. Durian honey vanilla ice cream, maybe.

SM:

That sounds like a great idea. Now, before I ask you some other questions, fun questions that I ask everyone who comes on, I just wanna ask you while I've got you online as it were, of all the bands you go for that we talk about, who's your favorite and or maybe we have one favorite that we both talk about a lot and we could talk about them just briefly.

TA:

I bet we could. Let me see if you can you recognize what this shirt is d this is a shirt from the most recent concert I've attended.

SM:

Oh, Peter Hook.

TA:

Yeah oh my gosh, you got it. Look, it's even Peter actually autographs a whole bunch of the shirts that he sells. Yes. This. . .

SM:

Well. So just so people will understand, Peter Hook was one of the founding members of the bands that we're gonna talk about just brief Joy Division. . .

TA:

Joy Division and. . .

SM:

. . . who I saw a few times. within, yeah, yeah.

TA:

Did you with Ian? well y yeah, with Ian. Wow.

SM:

And I saw one of the very, very first gigs of New Order.

TA:

Tell me more about that. Was this in the club in London, of course, or Manchester?

SM:

No, no, this was in a club in Sheffield called Adam. . .

TA:

Okay.

SM:

. . . Adam and Eve. That was for New Order. And at the top rank supporting the Buzzcocks as well as another was Joy Division. And there was Ian and they were as great and I loved them, but the Buzzcocks were always the best. But anyway.

TA:

Huh.

SM:

Well, that's great. I'm glad that we discuss that because you were wearing that shirt and I thought, Well. . . .

TA:

Did that look a little familiar?

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

This is from The Get, The Get. This is a reference to the Get Ready album, which Peter. . . This is abo. . . a week ago that I saw him in Boston. And so they played. . .

SM:

I haven't seen, I haven't seen them sin. . . for a long time. But anyway, okay. That was just some fun question I was gonna ask you just because you're here.

Okay, let's talk about these questions. If Ted were a meal, what would it be? If you can be any meal.

TA:

Oh my sort of my essence then.

SM:

Yeah. I'd love this.

TA:

Well. . . probably a spatched cocked chicken. That's it's the only way to cook it, It's the only, way.

SM:

Yeah. Only 'cause everything is all the skin gets cr. . . I always cook it on top of vegetables and then I always put this. . .

TA:

Potatoes, onions.

SM:

Oh okay. That's a great. . .

TA:

Yeah, high, high temperature.

SM:

Oh yeah.

TA:

And for anybody that doesn't know the Spatchcock term, it's the butterfly chicken. Cut out the backbone, flatten it down, and the dark meat and the light meat cooked absolutely evenly.

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

Every single time. It's true.

SM:

It's so yeah, and it's how I do it. And if you go on my Instagram going back a few weeks, I actually have exactly that. So that's fantastic.

Okay, if Ted had to go back in time to any meal, where would that be?

TA:

It would be with David Bowie.

SM:

Oh.

TA:

I had did see Bowie Live once for a short show that was great. I'm gonna go to nineteen eighty. Ashes to Ashes is my fa. . .  is one of my five favorite Bowie songs from a more modern era. I just really love that the I love the Scary Monsters album. Sure I do I love Starman and Queen Bitch, and all that other stuff?

SM:

Yeah, yeah. But there's. . .

TA:

Yes, of course. But if I were gonna hang out with Bowie in New York, which is where it would be, that's who I would want to have a meal with. For sure. That wasn't exactly your question, though.

SM:

I love. . . No though, but but you know, you answer it however you want to. I saw Bowie a few times and he was always great, but he. . . a friend of mine who was a journalist wrote a lot of music reviews and he went to have lunch with him somewhere and I was just like, just him and Bowie and I was like, What was that like? And so he did what you. . . Okay, and if. . . .

TA:

That sounds good to me.

SM:

Yeah.

Okay, so finally, of these questions, if Ted had to go back in time to see the invention of anything, what invention would it be?

TA:

That's a tricky one. I will tell you that the next. . .

SM:

Yeah. That's why I have it. That's why I have it.

TA:

The next time you're in New York, take a short trip to East Orange, New Jersey. It's not far at all from Manhattan, and go to the Thomas Edison Museum, the Thomas Edison home and studio. It's a it's one of the best things I've. . .

SM:

I've not been there.

TA:

. . .ever seen. it's fantastic. and while he did not invent the phonograph record, he did perfect it. and also true of the light bulb. He did not invent the light bulb, but he perfected it. And the museum is full of fascinating stuff like that.

SM:

But what about in the kitchen as well?

TA:

That's kind of a good one. I'd love to have been the guy who came up with the micro planer. The micro plane grater. Finally, a grater that works.

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

It's the, and I love zest. It's one of my favorite things in the world, citrus zest.

SM:

Oh yeah.

TA:

This a grater that can actually produce that zest perfectly every time. Years and years later, that planer is still gonna do it. So perhaps that's the one.

SM:

That to me is a great thing. And finally, what are your social media sites?

TA:

One day I was in a cab in Los Angeles and I had the, the epiphany that I should have the same name on all my social media and I thought. . .

SM:

Yeah.

TA:

. . . maybe I'm all of them. And I and I got them. I got it for all of them. I still use X, Twitter, whatever you want to call it. Once in a while I have my issues with the owner of it, but I have met a lot of rock stars, including Peter Hook. . .

SM:

Wow.

TA:

. . . with whom, with whom I was able to ha I got to hang out with for like, like thirty minutes after the show in Boston because we were able to communicate.

SM:

That's fantastic.

TA:

And he was a com fent super nice guy, along with three of my best mates who came see what I just did there? Who came along with me to the show. So, that was cool.

So, I use X, I use Threads, I use Instagram, and I sort of use Facebook. Although I don't really know how to anymore. It's just that anything I put on Instagram goes to Facebook and once in a while and I have found that there are a lot of places in the world, including a lot of rural America, including a lot of my family members down south, where Facebook is still the only social media they use.

SM:

Oh yeah. Yeah.

TA:

Didn't realize that until recently.

SM:

A lot of the people who follow me and they're very kind to follow me, they only use Facebook. All of those things. But your name is on them? You didn't tell me?

TA:

Oh yes, that's the important thing. Yes. It's The Ted Allen.

SM:

The Ted Allen.

TA:

The Ted Allen.

SM:

The Ted Allen.

TA:

There's only one. There's only one. It's me. The Ted Allen.

SM:

Fantastic. Thank you very, very much.

TA:

My pleasure, Simon. I would do it again.

SM:

Take care, my friend.

TA:

Thank you, Simon. You too as well. Cheers.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www.EatMyGlobe.com where we’ll be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

And, if you like what you hear, please don’t forget to join us on Patreon, subscribe, recommend us to your family and friends and give us a good rating on your favorite podcast provider.

Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE: Things You Didn’t Know You Didn’t Know About Food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help both with the editing of the transcripts and her essential help with the research.