Eat My Globe

Interview with Award-Winning Writer,

Rossi Anastopoulo

INTRO MUSIC

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

Hi everybody, I'm Simon Majumdar and welcome to a brand-new episode of Eat My Globe, a podcast about things you didn't know you didn't know about food. And on today's very special episode, we have as our guest, the wonderful Rossi Anastopoulo. She’s an award-winning writer whose work has appeared in Taste, Food 52, Bon Appetit, Garden & Gun and more. She has covered everything from the history of apple pie to fried pies in Arkansas. She's also an editor at King's Arthur Baking Company, which seems, I have to say, like a fantastic gig. Today, I am so thrilled that she has come along to share some of the amazing information she discovered while researching “Sweet Land of Liberty: A History of America in 11 Pies.” This was published by Abrams in 1922 [Ed Note: It was published in 2022]. So, do go and get it. Now, this is a narrative gastronomic history that uses pie – yep, that will be pie – as a lens through which to view the significant periods of transformation in America from the colonial era through the Civil Rights movement and beyond. It really is an extraordinary book, and I do recommend you do go and buy a copy. So, please allow me to introduce you to Rossi.

Rossi Anastopoulo (“RA”):

Thank you. It's so great to be here.

SM:

Yeah, this is. . . . I can't tell you, you were the first person I emailed and I just said I have to have this person on. Because like me, I use food as something that I use to describe history because it’s. . . . you know, that's the thing I understand. And you use it because you’re, I understand, a great baker, but you've used this pie to come in. Now, perhaps before we go on to talking about pies, you. . . perhaps you could tell us a little bit about you, who you are, what you do, apart from being an editor for the King Arthur Baking Company, which is fantastic, but perhaps you could tell us all about what you do and then we'll move on to some of the questions.

RA:

Absolutely. So, as you mentioned, I'm an editor at King Arthur Baking Company, which is a company all about baking. It's literally right there in the name, which is fabulous if you love baking like I do. And then I'm also a writer, now an author with this book coming out and a passionate baker. Baker has been. . . baking has been a huge part of my life for as long as I can remember. I can't even remember the first thing that I baked. So, yeah, so as you mentioned, I love to look at the world through food in so many different ways. And I think that I often find baking to be a really interesting way to do that more specifically because, you know, baking can sometimes be very whimsical or, you know, very, you know, evolve in so many different ways. And often dessert, I talk about it in the book specifically to pie, but it’s, you know, it's all sorts of desserts are like unnecessary. They're more about. . . often about celebration or about community or just about satisfying a sweet tooth. So, I just, I really am intrigued by that and love it. And I also have a massive sweet tooth. So, that's kind of how I eat the world too in addition to looking at it.

SM:

I. . . I definitely agree with you. I’m not a. . . I have to say I'm not a great baker. Obviously from what I do, I do a lot of criticism. I do a lot of stuff on the Food Network, but I don't know a lot about baking. But I have written a few in this season. In fact, I'm going to write an essay about cakes. So, that's very similar to what you’re doing. And I've written a whole essay going back to ancient Egypt and beyond and so all the way up to now. So that’s, you know, and that's the same. They’re unnecessary. And I was going to talk about that later. So, let's about that. 

But first before we do anything, I'm going to ask you why you had to mention Pie in the Face, why did you feel the need to include it? And I'm sorry, this isn't about baking per se, but since you do mention the Three Stooges, who we didn't have much in England, but I'm a big fan of Laurel and Hardy, who had one of the earliest, I think in Battle of the Century. I should ask the question. Not least because it has a political as well as a comedic one. So, tell me why you mentioned that in there as well, because it's not simply a baking question then, is it?

RA:

Yes. So, what you're referring to is the whole chapter towards the end all about the political pieing movement, which is literally people throwing pies in people's faces . . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

. . .for political protests. And yes, it does trace its origins back to the Three Stooges, and it really picked up steam in the modern incarnation of this activist movement starting in the 70s and, you know, going on to the 21st century. And one, I wanted to include it because it's hilarious in many ways, you know.

SM:

[Laughter]

Yes, it is.

RA:

It's a bunch of very cleverly punny named groups and agents running around throwing pies and proclaiming their preference for a certain type of pie. You know, cautioning against cherry pie ‘cause it can look like blood.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

You know, being odd personal decrees on who they will and won't pie. Like one Canadian member said he would never pie Celine Dion because he loved her. But I think, you know, in addition to just being funny and lighthearted, it in many ways is the final embodiment of the thesis of this book, which is that pie is about so much more than just what's in the pie dish. It's about more than just satisfying a sweet craving or physical hunger. It takes on a power and a potency that in many ways is symbolic or much more figurative than the literal pastry. So, you know, often in every other chapter it's also still eaten, but this is pie that is powerful without even having to have a bite taken out of it. And I thought that that was a really clear and kind of perfect embodiment of how I thought about pie and how this book approaches pie more broadly.

SM:

Oh, fantastic. Well, now we've got that out of the way and it was. . . I wanted to ask about that because it is something from the political point of view. Let's talk about pie. So, why, why pie?

[Laughter]

RA:

Yes.

SM:

I know. . . As I said, I know you're an avid baker, but why pie?

RA:

Yeah. So, pie is one of the most important, I think, dishes that I have made as a baker. So, I have, you know, my dad and my family, he is one of those people who doesn't like cake, he likes pie. And so, for his birthday, for as long as I can remember, we would. . . I would make him an apple pie because that’s what he wanted. And so that became the most consistent baked good and recipe that I've made. It was the most traditional. This idea of every October for his birthday, you know, my family comes together and enjoys the same apple pie every year. He says it's the best one I've ever made, even though it's. .

[Laughter]

. . . the same recipe.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

So, I have this very personal pie memory. And when I was in college, I was at the University of North Carolina and there are some wonderful professors and classes around food studies, and I had the opportunity to think about a topic I wanted to investigate, and immediately my mind jumped to pie. I loved pie, it was so personal to me. And being from the South and at school in the South, you know, pie is important everywhere in America, but it’s really has a foothold in the South and it's really particularly potent there. So, I was like, okay, can I look at, you know, the anthropology of pie in the South through things like race, class and gender. And that really opened up my understanding of just how, you know, special this dish can be and how so many of these stories can be layered on top of it to reveal something about the people who are eating it or the people who aren't eating it or so many other stories that kind of lie behind the facade of a recipe. And so that prompted this passion and led to what is eventually my, you know, professional writing on the subject, and eventually this book.

SM:

It is to me a really great idea. And I have to say the sort of thing that I would do. I'm just going to ask you this. Are you able to share how you make your apple pie or do you keep that separately?

RA:

It's in the book actually. It's the last chapter. You're “Revisiting Apple Pie” is Akim's apple pie. Akim is my dad. So that's, that’s the recipe. And to be honest, I don't really measure the ingredients anymore.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

So, maybe I don't always do it exactly like this, but that's probably the closest approximation of how I make it every year.

SM:

Oh, okay. I feel the same. I cook a lot of Indian food. My name is Indian and I have my curries. I cooked one today, a kind of methi curry. And the first thing that I do, I just don't check any of the ingredients. I just kind of whack them all in. And that's how I think about it. And people go, well, how do you make X? And then you get it, and I have to write it down sometimes for people and I have no idea how to write it down.

RA:

It's true. Yeah. Sometimes I don't measure the water in my pie crust. And the other day. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

. . . I was overconfident and put too much water in and I was like, oh no. I'm like, Icarus flying too close to the sun. I should. . . .

SM:

[Laughter]

So, let's, let’s go into the pie. When you. . . when you say then that pie is important to you, you talked about it in three ways, I think, in the book. Let's talk about it in history first because obviously this is a history show. When we look at the Roman side they started creating something like pie in there. So how did it become that and move into pie as we kind of know it now? Or did it move in between in lots of different stages?

RA:

Yeah, so ancient Mediterranean civilizations were making a very early incarnation, often oil-based press that really weren't meant to be eaten. They were thick and hearty and would have savory fillings, and that, you know, kind of stuck around and eventually became the foundation for more European and British Isles baking. And so, once you get into the Middle Ages is when pie starts to continue to evolve. The, you know, bakers in Britain and Europe started using butter and lard and their crust to make it a bit more flexible, not quite as heavy and dense, and it was, you know, started to be eaten as well, which was a key distinction. Though, at that time, people referred to it as pastry coffins ‘cause it was still really meant to hold the filling, which once again was still frequently savory.

SM:

I have to say that in England where they still make pork pies and I go and buy pork pies, they still call them the pastry coffins.

RA:

Oh really?

SM:

And they have. . . Yeah. And that's in Melton Mowbray, which is the home of the pork pie in England. And they still. . . . And I go up there quite often. I was just back in England recently, and you go up and you will always buy a pastry coffin. So that’s something. . . .

RA:

I love that.

SM:

Yeah.

RA:

I love that stuck around.

SM:

Yeah, so that's something that we know already. But sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

RA:

No, that's okay. I'll say I was in. . . I was in London with my dad earlier this year and he saw a pie shop and he was like, you have to go in. Pie. And I was like, not quite the same. You know. It's like the meat pie, not quite what you think.

SM:

It will be. Yeah. But the meat pies, anyway, we'll talk about that later.

[Laughter]

RA:

But yeah, just to close the loop on that, you know, as the renaissance rolls in, pastry starts to develop and you start getting more of the foundational French pastry that we think about, which leads to the type of crust that shifts into a lighter, more delicate pastry-based crust. And that's when fruit starts base and pies, more fruit-based ones that kind of lay the foundation for eventual sweet ones. And that's when, you know, apple pies start cropping up and become something that is made in England and then carried over. And that tradition is brought over once the, you know, colonists arrive in North America. And so, once colonists arrive, when you get to "American Cookery," which is the first cookbook written in the United States, it has kind of nicely straddles that moment between having some sweet fruit-based pies and then also having a lot of savory ones as well, like that kind of meat-based pie. And so, I think that's kind of the starting point for what becomes American pie evolving from a very long and ancient tradition in many ways.

SM:

That was. . . . Yeah, I think that's so fascinating. And that's what made me want to ask the next question, which is, you know, cinnamon, nutmeg, all these flavors that in America you use in pies – and we do now in the UK, or, I'm phoning from LA now – but how does that get into pies when it's been in meat pies in England, but very, very high up, very wealthy would afford to have cinnamon, nutmeg, saffron. They'd all use these in their pies. And how did it get to the point now where it's kind of, well, I go to a Smart and Final, I can buy a tiny thing of nutmeg, or how do you think that happened that it got into those kind of pies then?

RA:

Yeah, I mean I would say I haven't studied necessarily the specifics of spices per se, so I don't know if I can speak to, you know, authoritatively on that element, but I think that as, you know, cooking traditions evolve, you know, coming out of the influx of spices from the age of exploration and how they start to become a regular part of diets, even if, to your point, it's much more exclusive, I think it's just embedded itself in a lot of that style of cuisine. And then once it becomes more accessible and, you know, really a more common cooking and pastry thing, it naturally finds itself into pie. I don't know if it's pie specific that, you know. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

. . . they're baking with a lot of these places. I think just as it more broadly becomes accessible and becomes a part of cooking and pastry, pie is a natural fit for it as well. What is interesting to me is that, to your point, you know, cinnamon and nutmeg, these spices, they are foundational. They're embedded in what we think of as apple pie, American apple pie, but they're not American like many of the other. . .

SM:

Yep.

RA:

. . . ingredients that go into apple pie. They're from far-flung places, they're from other parts of the world, and they've coalesced into this quote unquote American dish. And so, I think that marriage is very interesting and kind of an interesting reframing of what we think of when we say, “as American as apple pie.”

SM:

Yeah, I mean, I was going to say that when we got to the end, the American as apple pie. But cinnamon is a particular one because that is so much seen in the US as being a sweet pie spice, whereas in England it’s, it's not. It's used in, you know, chicken tikka masala. It's used in all kinds of other things, but not as a sweet dessert, which is a sweet taste.

RA:

Yeah.

SM:

And I find that really, really interesting.

RA:

And my family – I'm Greek – and we use a lot of this pinch of cinnamon. . .

SM:

Yeah.

RA:

. . . and like pastitsio. You make the ground beef filling. And growing up when I was starting to make it, I thought that was so funny. I was like, why are we putting cinnamon in our meat? And it definitely is probably more common outside of the US than uncommon within.

SM:

May I just ask, where in Greece are you from? Because I know Greece relatively well.

RA:

Oh yes.

SM:

I've been there, Sybil and I, who you've met. We've been to about a hundred countries now. So, we go around seeing. . . . And that's part of our kind of what we do. So, I'm just really fascinated where you're from in Greece.

RA:

Yeah, my mom's side, her mom's side is from Sparta and her dad's side is from Karpenisi. It’s like the mountain area. My dad's side, his father's side is from Kalavryta on the Peloponnese.

SM:

Yes.

RA:

And then his mom's side was originally in Asia Minor and then in Athens, so kind of a bunch of different places.

SM:

Oh wow. Well, it's a, it’s an amazing country. So, I, I love the fact that you're speaking about that. Now, I just wanted to go on. You've talked about this a little bit. You know, I'm a Brit, as you can tell by my accent. So, coming from Britain, I've been here now for 14 years, but coming from Britain, I always think of pies particularly as primarily meat-based. That’s what I have. I have my steak kidney pie, I have my steak and ale pie, I have my pork pie, my chicken and mushroom pie. I mean they're all. . . . That's what I think about for pies. And when I come to the US and I went out to go and find my, you know, a pie and I come back with something very different. How, how do you think that changed? I mean, what, what is the, what is, what's the word, the purpose of being able to change that? Where did that come from?

RA:

Yeah. So, as I was mentioning, when pie arrived in the US, you know, mostly from Britain and British culinary traditions, excuse me, it kind of took inspiration from the fruit and apple pies that had already been made there and was still definitely a lot of savory meat-based pies. So, both those threads come. And while it's kind of unclear why exactly American cuisine so firmly veered toward sweet pies, it likely has something to do with the ready availability of sugar from the sugar colonies in the Caribbean. . .

SM:

Ah.

RA:

. . . and the plantation itself. And as sugar more broadly becomes a part of the American diet and becomes so accessible and affordable, the American palette starts to tend towards, trend towards sweet. And I think that most likely influenced how we think about pie more generally and how it was made and kind of veered into a firmly dessert category here.

SM:

Because I was wondering about that. With a, with a close relationship that people had to the countries they came from –  initially, you know, it was Britain and then it was obviously, you had the Italians and you had the great. . . – do you think they bring those dishes in or do you think people like Malinda Russell, who I wrote about, in fact, in one of the episodes we did of this, you know, she came in and was she as important? If you mean like the people here or the people from the countries we came from, what do you think is kind of more important if that's. . . .

RA:

Yeah, I think pie is so interesting because pie, you know, to get to America is influenced as we've talked about by traditions from other countries. But I think once it gets to America, it's really not so beholden to necessarily other cuisines, but it's really the personal experiences of the people or the person who's making it. So, sometimes that can overlap with nationality, but it's not limited to that. And so, I think that, that is part of why, part of the malleability of pie that, you know, I've talked about in the context of pie, it can really evolve because it's so broad. It's often a filling and a crust. And so how you make it and what ingredients are available and so many other conditions can shape it. So, for instance, Malinda Russell, who you mentioned, who for listeners who don't know is instrumental and she's one of the first Black cookbook authors period.

SM:

Absolutely.

RA:

But also to, you know, write a sweet potato pie recipe more specifically. And so, she is influenced by, you know, her Southern roots and the ready availability of sweet potatoes in the South and its foundational role in Southern culture. And so that's what influences her work and her broader cookbook work as well. So, I think that. . . . So, to answer your question, I think once that pie becomes American, it's really more about the communities and the people who make it, and less so the international influences, although those can sometimes creep in as well.

SM:

Fantastic. And I think what's interesting now is that we've got more immigration going on from lots of different countries now. So, we have got more meat pies coming in, whether it's the empanada or it's, you know, different countries like that. So, I think that we're beginning to go back or to rediscover those pies as well. Do you think that's true?

RA:

Yeah, and I was gonna, I wanted to look up, because there’s a quote. . . . You know, there's something that the actress America Ferrera, who's Latina, writes. . .

SM:

Yes.

RA:

. . . about growing up and she kind of talks about, for her, for instance, you know, on Christmas, her family would eat tamales and apple pie and that kind of bridge that was. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

. . . her experience and that kind of, there's influence from quote unquote traditional American cuisine but also, you know, her family's cuisine. And I think that, that is what's so beautiful about American cuisine and how the influences of so many people's backgrounds and families and where they're from can braid themselves together. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. And, you know, I'd love to see a trend towards more of the pie adjacent versions that can be found around the world.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

You know, bring this on. I think more iterations of pie are always welcome in my book.

SM:

How do you think it is changing in American history? ‘Cause I don't think that it's stayed still. It's creating all the time. But how, how can pies, you know, create themselves? So, apple pie is apple pie, you know. So, how does that change take place?

RA:

Yeah, I mean I think that a lot of bakers around the country are taking pie and really innovating with it in all sorts of ways. So, there's a baker, Lauren Ko, who's based in Seattle, who makes gorgeous pie designs. She treats pie as a literal canvas. And I think it's really fascinating how she approaches it. Oftentimes, you know, it'll look beautiful pre baking because you have the crisp clean pastry lines and then it'll kind of dull a little bit while baking, but that's less of the point. It's not about the baked version or, you know, how it tastes, even though they taste amazing too. I don't want to say they don't.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

But it's really taking this thing. We're all familiar with pie and using it as an art form, which I think is so fascinating. And I think that's beautiful. You know, the indie magazine, Cake Zine. . .

SM:

Yeah.

RA:

. . . they just did a holiday pie edition and there is a chapter in there that's influenced by desperation pies, you know, a common pie type from the Great Depression and World War II, and its modern iterations of that. So, there's a Spam Musubi pie or I think. . .

SM:

Oh wow.

RA:

. . . yeah, or another version of a mock apple pie that's, you know, more suited to a kind of, a re-imagining, but I think it's Camilla Wynne. So, I think that now it's kind of fun to play with the legacy of pie to kind of take it and be like, okay, how can we think about other ways of approaching it? And you know I think pie in its stereotypical form or its regular form will always be around. It's always going to be delicious and it's always going to be there, but a lot of really creative bakers are using it to express some other ideas, which I think is beautiful. That's kind of what the whole book is about. So, we’ll see where we get from here.

SM:

I think that works with some of the people I've interviewed before as well. I haven't used it yet, but Bompas and Parr who do the same thing in England with Jello. . .

RA:

Oh yeah.

SM:

. . . which is really amazing because they'll do a whole thing of a town out of Jello and they'll do that.

RA:

Oh my gosh.

SM:

I mean they do amazing and it sounds like the same thing. One of the things that you say, and I think you said it earlier as well, is that it's unnecessary when you talk about it. And this is something that I said about cake. It's unnecessary, but it has this. . . . Because it's like that, it has a great way of telling us about history. So, tell us what you think of it about as a tool. You've used it as this tool before you've gone on to look at the cakes that you're going to look at. What do you talk about? For example, in the book, you talk about Ezell Blair who's now known as Jibreel Khazan who has a piece of cherry pie. But you said the cherry pie wasn't particularly great. He had it at Woolworths or something. But it was the pie he chose to start would be, hopefully be, a peaceful protest. So how do you kind of bring that together?

RA:

Yeah, I mean pie in that instance is quite literally a symbol. So, for those who might be unaware, this is one of the orders made at the Greensboro sit-ins, the original sit-in at the Woolsworth lunch counter that was ordered by one of the Greensboro Four. And in that case, that’s, it's just, it's so, such an act of metaphor, you know. It's this idea of a Black man asking to be served in a segregated white space, a pie. And so, a slice of pie becomes this idea for equality and acceptance as an American, and it becomes a fight over the right to eat this pie. It didn't even matter to your point that the pie was good or not. The pie wasn't actually that good.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

It's more the right to have this very traditional and stereotypical, especially at a lunch counter and a diner, you know, food and dish, and it sparks this broader fight. And so, I think that, that's a very, you know, a very clear, a very clear example of the symbolism that pie can take on. And, you know, it is not. . . it's worth mentioning too that pie, you know, pie in the South and pie in America is, you know, had developed through a lot of influence of Black chefs and particularly in enslaved kitchens and whatnot. So, I think that it's an important thing to note to when you're thinking about that particular pie in North Carolina in Greensboro playing such a significant role in the fight, fight for civil rights in the ‘60s.

SM:

I just think that's such an extraordinary story and that pie is in the middle of it.

RA:

Exactly, yeah.

SM:

Yeah. And, and it's something that, coming from the UK, we obviously know about that story, but we, you know, we don't know it as well as Americans do. And for me to be able to come across that is something that I found really interesting. Really, really interesting.

Let's talk about the book. Let’s. . . it is, as I've said before, it is such a great book and lots of stories in there that I didn't know. And I think of myself that's kind of food enthusiast and I'm doing this as often as I possibly can with all the shows and stuff I've got to do. Let's talk about some of the pies that I didn't know about. OR, you know. So, let's talk about molasses pie because when I think of molasses, I think about it coming up to, you know, coming up to America for rum in the north and all of that. But I do like the description that you put in there. . .

[Laughter]

. . . as versatile as Gary Oldman's acting range. Now, I hope that you're being kind there, ‘cause I think. . . .

RA:

Yes, I love Gary Oldman.

SM:

Yeah, he's one of my favorite actors. So, tell us why you think that pie was so great, and, you know, particularly in the Southern states during the Civil War.

RA:

Yeah, I mean, molasses pie, it, it kind of. . . . Molasses in general is this kind of hard scrabble. . . very like, when your pantries are bare type of food stuff. The idea like. . . . Molasses is frequently associated, you know, with lower class cuisines. You know, not always. People all over the South, especially throughout history have enjoyed it. But it's considered a food stuff that is very versatile period. You know, it can be used in so many different ways in particularly Southern cuisine. But in a pie, you can kind of throw it in and throw in some eggs and throw in sometimes additional sugar, which kind of blows my mind sometimes. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

. . . and pour it into a pastry shell. Often it can be used even if it's not strict molasses pie, but used as a sweetener in pecan pie or even an apple pie or in so many other pies as well. So, it’s very, you know. . .  It can play a versatile role in just pie in general. And then there's outside of the South, there's shoofly pie in Pennsylvania, and that's a different version of molasses pie that is, you know, crumble topped and plays a big role there. So, I think molasses in general is this very versatile food stuff that you can spin so many different ways. And it really, carries a lot. . .

SM:

I mean I have some in the, in the freezer, in the fridge now and I use it. But it's not as obvious an ingredient nowadays as it was.

RA:

Yeah.

SM:

So again, explain how. . .

RA:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . it goes from that. So popular to just not existed because of sugar and all of that.

RA:

Yeah, exactly. So, molasses in part is so readily available because it's a byproduct of the sugar refining process, right. So, anytime you make sugar you're going to get molasses, and so that's part of why, excuse me, it's lots of option, but it's also cheaper than sugar. So that's what makes it attractive. But as sugar becomes finally, eventually sugar becomes super cheap, it kind of knocks out molasses as the primary sweetener and as the primary choice for an economic source of sweetness. And so, it really isn't now, it's like a niche culinary staple. And it's one that to your point, people don't turn to that often because of, there's no need for it really.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

Why turn to this very bitter, very strongly flavored sweetener when you can just buy very cheap sugar. But I think it is important to note, you know, one of the, you know, key parts of molasses and sugar more broadly is it's inextricable from the slave trade, from the system of sugar plantations and enslavement in the Caribbean, in the Southern United States. And that is once again, part of why molasses is so readily available and part of why it is so cheap and part of why it's so intrinsic to a lot of American and specifically Southern food ways. And so, you can’t un. . . you can't un. . . you can’t separate those two. So, I think that's an important element of the story that not unlike pumpkin pie and Native cuisine, you know, you have to. . . it's important to recognize and acknowledge that and not obscure that history of that past.

SM:

No, I think once you start talking about that, and I did write about the history of rum two seasons ago, maybe three seasons. . .

RA:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . and writing about that triangle trade that happened, and that was something that was very interesting. And that's where I really, again, began to understand how molasses worked, you know, as a thing, let alone as an ingredient for pies.

Now, let's talk about something else. Again, this is something that I've never heard of and is bean pie. And that to me was fantastically interesting because it became part of, you know, business there that was going on with Elijah Muhammad. And I mean, it was just an incredible pie, but how that came about I think to me is just, again, news to me, but perhaps, you know, in America people might know more about it.

RA:

I think that, well, it depends, you know. It depends on who you're asking, but I think that a lot of. . . . When I first wrote about it for Taste, a lot of people at least who talked to me were not familiar with it. After publishing, the people I've talked to and reported with of course were great, but people once it was published who, you know, read it and were like, oh, this is surprising. So, I don't know if it's so well known. I think maybe it's getting more, but yeah. So, this is a pie. It's made with navy beans. Even though it's made with navy beans, it is very sweet, it’s, you know, creamy. It's kind of like a custard style pie. It's very good. I highly recommend it. But you. . .

SM:

I have to try it.

RA:

Yeah, you absolutely should. I think it surprises people whenever I've made it for them. They're like a little apprehensive, but it's delicious.

SM:

Do you only buy it from the people in that community these days, or can you buy it in any store now?

RA:

Yeah, you can buy it. You know, if you can find, you know, any kind of bakery that is associated with the Nation of Islam or not. A lot of Black owned bakeries in South LA here where I live. . . .

SM:

Oh really?

RA:

Yes, you're in LA. Yes, no, you can definitely, I had a friend actually buy me one recently, so I can give you the bakery name if I ask her for it.

[Laughter]

SM:

Fantastic. Thank you very much for that because it's something I've never tried, and even my wife who's been here all her life, she doesn't know about it or didn't know about it. And so, I think that's something that we've got to try. But tell me more about this pie because it’s. . .  I think it's really fascinating.

RA:

Yeah. So, the bean pie, yes, as we've mentioned, it's stemmed from the Nation of Islam. And so, the whole ethos of the Nation of Islam, it is really an example of this broader Black power movement. And so, the idea was the creation of a separatist Black culture, independent of influence, of white influence, completely independent of the legacies of enslavement and really a creation buy-in for Black communities. And so, part of that, you know, extended to what people wore, of course, the, you know, example of Malcolm X, you know, changing. . .

SM:

Yes.

RA:

. . . last name from [indecipherable] names, et cetera, but it also manifested itself in food. And so, Elijah Muhammad, the leader of the Nation of Islam, he wrote a whole book, “How to Eat to Live,” that kind of put forth these doctrines of this new diet, this new diet that really was meant as a departure from the so-called slave diet that more broadly, you know, was the foundation of soul food. And so, by extension, something like sweet potato pie, which is, you know, has roots in the South, has roots in enslaved kitchens, is rejected in favor of this new pie, bean pie. And so, it's unclear why Elijah Muhammad loved the navy bean. It's a bit murky, but he did. He said that's the only bean that people should eat and that they should eat it. . .

SM:

Huh.

RA:

. . . for health. Yeah. Eat it for their health and eat it. And so, it shows up in so many different dishes including cake frosting, which is very interesting.

[Laughter]

SM:

Very odd.

RA:

Very odd.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

But perhaps the most iconic, and the one that really became a symbol of this eating philosophy is the navy bean pie.

SM:

Um-hm.

RA:

And one of my favorite stories about the pie is Lana Shabazz, who is Muhammad Ali's personal chef. . .

SM:

Yep.

RA:

. . . and some credit her with having invented the navy bean pie, but she was famous for hers. And Muhammad Ali loved, loved navy bean pie and blamed one of his boxing losses to having been unable to resist her pie during training.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

He claimed he was out of shape and that's why he lost.

SM:

Well, I'm a big fan of Muhammad Ali, so I even went down to, you know, Louisville and went to his museum and all of that. So. But they never mentioned the navy bean pie.

RA:

Yeah, I think there’s a. . . . I think it's a New York Times profile when he is, you know, just starting to hit the bean and he is shown or described as eating not one but two pies. So, he really was a fan.

SM:

Oh, fantastic. Yeah, that's something I've got to go and look at. And that's the beauty of this book as well. It's not just you have the apple pie, you have those things in there, but you have this that very few people know about. But if they do, they realize what a part of American history it is. And that's the purpose I think of this book. And it's fantastic.

Again, we're going to come onto another pie – that from England, we don't know – the chiffon pie. So, you know, we look at things by way of personality. So, when we look at Eat My Globe, we look at the people who do things. We look at the Ice King who was up in this, the guy in the 1800s who took ice down to Australia. And basically, he went to Walden Pond, had this ice taken out, put in hay and took it to Australia and sold. . . and took it to India and he’s. . .

RA:

Oh my god.

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . someone we talk about. So, there's these great people in history, amazing people. And when you mention about this, you have Mr. Monroe Boston Strause. Have I got that right? Have I got that?

RA:

I heard it pronounced otherwise, so yes. That's awesome.

SM:

Okay, so that's good. And he seems just like the person all our listeners love to hear about. And in fact, his publisher describes him as, Monroe Boston Strause has indeed every right to the title, the Pie King, every baker in the United States or Canada or wherever he is known to acknowledge him as such. Sorry, there's a quote from you from your book, but I. . . but, that's him. And so, I don't know anything about him and I'd love you to tell us about him.

RA:

Yes, he is quite the character, the self-dubbed Pie King. And so, he was a baker in Los Angeles who proclaimed to have invented the chiffon pie in the ‘20s. Chiffon pie is made by folding and beaten egg whites. It's very light and fluffy. He also claimed to have invented the graham cracker crusts in. . . also with the chiffon pie. Yeah, but he. . .

SM:

Oh, I thought that was taken from the digestive biscuit in England.

RA:

He writes in his book. . . .

SM:

No, no. I don’t. . . I don’t. . .

RA:

No, no. I don’t. . . But that's the funny thing is that he built his whole reputation on inventing the chiffon pie. And there are references to chiffon pie, a couple of 'em from before he was said to have invented it. So, I think that. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

. . . Monroe Boston Strause, he was very much a self-made man and very much one who knew how to market himself, knew how to market his pie, knew how to. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

. . . use it as a springboard to. . . for fame, for fame and fortune, frankly, which is so fascinating ‘cause he was in LA, you know, at the time of the rise of Hollywood and this idea of, you know, movie stars that he explicitly tapped into in his cookbook. He has a picture of the movie star Mary Pickford eating a bite of orange chiffon pie. So, he knew what he was. . . he was trying to accomplish. But yeah, he creates his own origin story. I think at one point he claimed that he got into pie because someone threw a pie at him and it tasted good, so he decided to make it.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

That's not true.

[Laughter]

He was very, very flamboyant. Very bombastic. He would do national tours to give demos on how to make the chiffon pie. He would pull these elaborate stunts like baking, you know, giant pies to try to set records. I'm trying to see if I can remember one of the more specific ones that he did. I want to say there was one that was 30 feet or something like that. Like, insane.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

And the funny thing too is he was very set on the scientific approach to pie. He was like, you should be very exact in your measurements. He would deride quote unquote, you know, homemakers for being slip shot in their measurements and not being good at baking. So, he was like, he took a very scientific, very methodical mathematical approach to baking that he also tried to use to establish this identity as a pie genius, for lack of a better word. But yeah, he was quite the character. And the sad thing is, you know, after the ‘40s into the ‘40s and ‘50s, he kind of disappeared. No one really knows what happened to him. He just kind of filtered away. And it's sad to think that someone who clearly thrived in the limelight in the spotlight didn't really get it anymore. And I don't know what he did, but it’s, you know. . .

SM:

I think that's true on a lot of people. We mention all these people through the stories that we tell, and a lot of it, you know, I'll write essays or we'll have interviews with people and we'll talk about these extraordinary people who are in their time are so well known. And then once they're gone and no one knows about them. And I think that maybe tells us all a story.

[Laughter]

RA:

Yeah, exactly.

SM:

Let's talk about the next one because right now we're all getting worried about what's happening in Maui. And I've got friends over there who actually had a restaurant in the Pioneer Inn. She'd just opened it a few years ago, and it was a fantastic restaurant. We went there last year, and so she's lost all of that and she's got a, we'll mention her now. She's got a great GoFundMe for all the people there, for all those there. She's Leanne Wong. She's very, very well-known there. But we've got a Hawaiian pie, which is the chocolate haupia pie, would you call it? I've never heard of it. So again, this is. . . I'm only getting you to give us some of the stories because I want people to read the book. But tell me what's worth writing about this pie, because you make it one of your 11 pies.

RA:

Yes. So, it gets. . . it's got a little sidebar, so it's not one of the full-fledged 11, but it is one of the ones mentioned. . .

SM:

Yeah.

RA:

. . . because I think it's an interesting counterpoint. So, it comes paired with the second apple pie chapter because I think it's an interesting counterpoint for American pie. And so, we think about apple pie because in so many ways it's like a universal experience, right, and so many of us tap into it in many ways mirrors the immigrant experience. But I think chocolate haupia pie is an interesting one because it's so specific to a certain type of American experience that in some ways it also is very emblematic of. . . it is deserving to be American pie in so many ways. So, this is a traditional coconut-based, coconut milk based Hawaiian dessert, and it's kind of like gelatin-like, in consistency, even though it's sometimes called a pudding and it's embedded in Hawaiian culture. And so, the chocolate version I think is a very cool example of taking a very regional, a very local dessert and turning it into a pie, doing that same thing of braiding it with traditional American dessert to make something that's unique to a place and unique to an experience, an emblematic, an experience of a certain group of Americans. And so that's why I think it's important to kind of shout out the. . . and cool to shout out the regional pockets and what we don't always think of as the canon of pie in America, even if it very much has a strong relation to the experience of living in our country for a lot of people.

SM:

Well, that's fantastic and I'm glad that even today, I mean this'll be on the podcast forever and ever and ever, but it's nice today that we can mention Maui and all the things that are going on about the people there, because we want to think about them all. We're going to finish about the pie element here because we're going to start, we'll finish with apple pie, of course. Yeah. And I remember reading about this, and this is what I'm not sure if it was in your book I've mentioned as well, but the French Jesuits and then the British brought the apples. . . . The French Jesuits are the first people I think to bring the apples to America and then the British or lots and lots of them. And so how did that get to be? And I mentioned this and you mentioned it earlier as American as apple pie. And let's just talk about how apple pie just became this thing that is, you say now as American as apple pie.

RA:

It really is in many ways a truly American story, one that relies on marketing and military. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

. . . and, you know, advertising so many other. . .

[Laughter]

. . . very American concepts, for better or for worse. But yes, so apple pie, as we talked about earlier, arrives with the arrival of British colonists and it becomes a pie that is, you know, published in the first American cookbook, “American Cookery,” and it becomes right off the bat a part of American cuisine. But how does it go from being part of American cuisine to the star of American cuisine? And it kind of has a fallow period for. . . throughout the 19th century and then towards the end of the 19th century, and then really picking up at the 20th and throughout really starts to pick up steam. So, there are some references in the late 1800s to as American as apple pie and some colloquial uses. But when it really starts to pick up is, I would say in World War I, when. . .

SM:

Oh, okay.

RA:

. . . a lot of. . . . There were a lot of accounts of foreign. . . or soldiers abroad on foreign soil who, you know, were dreaming of apple pie, they were homesick for apple pie.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

[Laughter]

And I can't remember, I want to double check if it's World War I or World War II, but yeah, you know, some soldiers would write home and talk about how special apple pie was and how comforting it was. Like one soldier wrote, you know, “What better reminder of home / What brings mother’s love touch so nigh / To American soldiers in France / As American apple pie.”

SM:

Wow.

RA:

And so, for many soldiers abroad, you know, becomes this symbol. And I think that translates to once they come back, and this idea once again of America's patriotic power. And so, this idea of America as a superpower, positioning their might against other countries throughout the world. Apple pie somehow got caught up in that, which is crazy. So, a lot of Americans would compare apple pie to that in other countries. They would cast others as unsurprisingly negative. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

. . . compared to their own. So, you know, one reporter said something to the effect of, oh, he was talking about the rude measures a lot of French were forced to take during World War I and wrote, “The French banned pastry as a food conservation measure. If they had American apple pie in France, they'd never have done it.”

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

And, you know, others. . . . Someone wrote about how bad German apple pie was. And definitely, I'm sorry to say the British got a lot of flack for their apple pie as well.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

[Laughter]

SM:

Hey. There's a lot of things I love about British food. The apple pie probably might be. . . there might be some good stuff. But I think the American apple pie, I always think of as just being too sweet.

RA:

Hmm.

SM:

And that's the problem I have with it.

RA:

That's so funny because there’s a. . . I'm trying to find a British quote. There's a British writer reporter who basically said a very similar thing. I think he called American apple pie like a gastronomic bomb or something like that.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

So, you have a long tradition of opinions like that.

[Laughter]

SM:

I wonder who that is. Well, we do. We do find a lot of the pies here, and this is probably a good place to stop on the pies because, but I want people to go, as I said, to go and buy this book ‘cause it is great. But I think in Britain we find the pies just a little bit sweet for us, just a little bit. And I think that's, you know, just once you have, and I've been here a lot long time, so I've, you know, having them more sweet now. But when I go back to England, I find those pies – and not the meat pies – the dessert pies, just a lot more to my temperament, I think. But before we move on to some, hopefully the rest of them have been fun questions, but some more fun questions. I just want to thank you for coming on because this is such a great story, and to tell it through pies has just been fantastic.

So, before we move on to the other questions, I'd like to give you a huge round of applause for that. But now we've got my kind of fun questions that we have at the end that we just like to ask people before they go. And we've asked everyone from Alton Brown to Andrew Zimmern, to all of these people. And what we like as well is some of the professors from wherever come in and ask these questions. And anyway, so let's start.

If Rossi was a meal, and it doesn't have to be a pie, but it can be, what would it be?

RA:

I am so stumped by this question. So, I'm going to default to my comfort zone, which is pie. So, I guess I'll say a key lime pie, you know, a little sweet, a little salty, a little sour, just a lot of mix of everything. You know, kind of chill from the whipped cream. So yeah, I think I have to go with that.

SM:

That's perfect. Do you know I've never. . . I’ve never met a key lime pie that I haven't loved.

RA:

It's really great. It's a good starting pie because it's hard to mess up. It's really, yeah.

SM:

Yeah. Well, I dunno, I probably have messed it up. If you could go, okay, this is a great one for you. If you could go to any meal during history or a meal in a particular point in history, what would it be?

RA:

I promise I'm not just picking this because you're British.

SM:

[Laughter]

RA:

But I'd have to say the Wimbledon Champions dinner from the year that Arthur Ashe and Billie Jean King won. I'm a huge tennis fan and I. . .

SM:

Me too.

RA:

[Laughter]

I adored both of those players. Arthur Ashe is, you know, one of my, you know, one of my, you know, heroes. So, in fact, they both were there and dancing and celebrating together. And. . .

SM:

So sorry to say that, but you probably aren't old enough to remember Arthur Ashe. . . .

RA:

No, no, no. But yes, I read a lot about him and I wish I could have met him.

SM:

I'm very much old enough to remember him and he. . . his playing was so elegant and so. . .

RA:

Yeah, he was the best.

SM:

He was. And, and  Billie Jean King was just oh. . . . And the Wimbledon, yes, I remember watching that Wimbledon when I was probably 13 or 14 and remember watching it on a little tiny little color TV and it was great. What did they serve there? Serve? I didn't even know, you see.

RA:

I dunno. I dunno if it's like, you know, the master's dinner, it’s, you know, you get to request, but I don't know, probably pick the food.

SM:

I should go and check that up. Maybe I ought to do a Wimbledon edition of Eat My Globe. And that would be a fun one actually. Okay. I'd have to write that down. Okay. If you could choose any invention in history, what would it be?

RA:

Yes. Probably not the most impactful for humanity, but probably the most impactful for me is the stand mixer. That's just, I don't know what I'd do without a stand mixer. So probably that.

SM:

I think that's a great, a great idea. I've got one, I can't think of any house generally in the country that doesn't have one, even if it's just shoved in the back and no one thinks about it anymore. But I use mine quite a lot. So, I think that's a perfect one for you. That's fantastic. And then at the end of our show, we do like to give, you know, I dunno if I've followed you yet on Twitter and should we call it that now? I dunno what we call Twitter now.

RA:

I still called it Twitter.

SM:

But Facebook, Instagram, Threads, TikTok. Where can people find you on all of those?

RA:

Yes. I'm only on Instagram. I'm @aBakingGirl, so you can find me there.

SM:

At a baking girl. Okay. I'm glad that you're on there. But I have to say with all of the things that you've mentioned, you probably should get on the others because so many people will need to learn about your book. And I think you. . . . No, seriously. And so, whatever you do, even if it's things like TikTok, which is even I'm on now, and getting people to see the sort of pies that you mentioned and talk about that, people find that very interesting and I think they will find you and your enthusiasm and your passions about pie, just really, really just being fantastic. I want to thank you again. This has been such a great conversation, and I will go and follow you now on Insta or Instagram or whatever. My wife looks after it for me.

RA:

Well, thank you so much. It's been such a joy to be here with you. So enjoyed this conversation, so thank you for having me.

SM:

Well, thank you. So, thank you very much and we will see you later. Take care.

RA:

Bye.

SM:

Buh-bye.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www.EatMyGlobe.com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. Theres’s also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

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Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE: Things You Didn’t Know You Didn’t Know About Food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

[Ring sound]

We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help both with the editing of the transcripts and essential help with the research.