EAT MY GLOBE

INTERVIEW WITH JEFFREY COHEN

INTRO MUSIC

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

Hi everybody, and welcome to a brand-new episode of Eat My Globe, a podcast about things you didn't know you didn't know about food.

And on today's show we have a really fascinating discussion about insects. Yep, about insects. A subject about which I know almost nothing but our guest today is an expert. So, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to present you with Professor Jeffrey H. Cohen who contacted me and said I think you should talk about insects.

[Laughter]

So, Jeffrey, tell us about yourself.

Jeffrey Cohen (“JC”):

So, thank you so much for the invitation to join you. My name is Jeffrey Cohen. I'm a professor of anthropology at The Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio. And over my career, I've had the opportunity to study several different things. And one of the topics I'm working on currently is the consumption of insects or entomo. . . entomophagy in Southern Mexico.

SM:

Wow.

[Laughter]

So, tell me what else you're doing because I know that you've had a variety of things you've been doing and I'm glad you pronounced that – entomophagy – because I wasn't quite sure again not knowing a lot about insects and the way they are consumed. So, you've been doing. . . you've been working in Mexico and Oaxaca I believe and specifically the toasted grasshoppers or the chapulines of. . . what we will be talking about today and the subjects around that. Is that right?

JC:

Exactly, exactly. Yes, yes.

SM: 

That's fantastic. Well, let's start because I hope people are listening to this because it'll be a fascinating subject but there's a great deal of the population in you know the world which is nearly 8 million people who actually do eat insects you know and so why don't you talk to us about that? Because I think it's, you know, a vast amount.

JC:

Sure, sure, my pleasure, my pleasure. So, we have, geez, eight billion people. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

. . . about two billion, give or take one or two, right, are gonna eat insects in some part of their diet. They're gonna practice entomophagy. There are over 2,000 different species of insects that are consumed. . .

SM:

Wow.

JC:

. . . and they show up across 3,000 different ethnic groups and 130 different countries.

SM:

Can you give us an example of, you know, because people do know a little bit about Mexico or certain areas of Mexico, certainly eating insects, but can you give us some of the ideas where the other ones are? Because I. . . . A lot of that I just know, who knew? Well, I didn't, you obviously did, that 130 countries ate insects.

JC:

Yeah, it's pretty amazing if you think about it. The countries tend to be in the tropical regions. They are really in almost every continent. So, you can find people eating insects in the Americas, central, you know, in Mexico, Central America, South America, West Africa, Southeast Asia, Australia. In all of these places, we find the consumption of insects by different populations. There's some kind of, there's a little bit of, you know, specialization in certain places. Sometimes you find groups of people that are consuming more of one species, like the people I work with who are eating grasshoppers. Other times it's eating grubs. So, it's not just the insect, but it's the insect in different points in its life, in its life cycle. And also the kind of the byproducts like honey, for example, we don't really think of it as an insect byproduct, but it is.

SM:

Oh wow, yes of course it is.

Well, tell me about the farming of it as well because you're saying that there is some farming of insects but primarily you're telling me it's semi-domesticated. Is that the right way of calling it?

JC:

Yeah, so yeah, I think it's a funny word, semi-domesticated.

SM:

Yes.

JC:

I always have the image of people kind of riding horses and roping grasshoppers or something, I don't know.

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

[Laughter]

But the way it gets used is to say that there are certain patterns that we can find in the production of insects that really have moved them into what we could think of as a semi-domesticated kind of category. So, where I do a lot of my research in southern Mexico and Oaxaca, people are harvesting grasshoppers called chapulin. They're harvesting them from very specific fields. And those are fields of maize, of corn, and fields of alfalfa. And both of those, both of those fields are really conducive to supporting the grasshoppers. And so, you get this sort of semi-domesticated outcome.

In other places, we find people that do, in fact, farm. There are, in North America, there are a lot of cricket farms. . .

SM:

Oh.

JC:

. . . that are focused on producing feed for other animals. So, chicken feed, for example, sometimes will include crickets as the protein and crickets are pretty easy to farm. You just need a big building and a good, you know, kind of regular heat and they'll take care of themselves. Other places and generally if you look across the history of entomophagy, it's going into the wild and finding the insects. But again, where we're as humans interacting with that environment, we’re, we're more than likely managing it to help kind of support the increase in the growth of the different insects that we're going to consume.

SM:

Wow. I, I love that and the fact that you're saying that, you know, two billion people, you know, practice eating insects. And you were saying when you wrote to me that you said that people might assume that this is to kind of. . . to. . . in a response to disasters or kind of interruption to what's normal foods.

But for many people around the world, they're actually welcome. They, they love these insects. And I wonder what you could talk about that because, you know, I have eaten insects. I've been to Mexico. I've been to there's a place in London that sells insects and sell from West Africa, you know, so I've eaten them. And I'm not just doing it because it's clever or because. . . . I'm doing it because I want to try them and I actually find them rather tasty, I have to say.

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

So, I’d love to know, you know, that people aren't just eating these because they're having a disaster or some kind of interruption to what they're eating.

JC:

Yeah, that's a really important point. And I couldn't agree more that insects are just food. They're not, they’re not, you know, a thing that people are going to turn to in a moment of crisis, but ignore otherwise. The best, the best example I can give you comes from the work that we've been doing in southern Mexico. So, there's another insect that . . .

I work with people who are create. . . who are producing chapulin, which are the grasshoppers. Every spring, right at the start of the rainy season, another insect emerges, it's called a chicatana. And a chicatana is a flying ant. And they only come out once a year. And the absolute joy of watching little kids chase and grab the chicatanas and just eat them. It’s. . . . You realize how wonderfully, you know, how happy they are to, to, to have these things, you know, and it's just a special moment. It's a highlight. I mean, everybody looks forward to it. And it's not in any way thought of as, well, you know, this is what I have to eat because I don't have, you know, a hamburger or something.

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

So, you know, watching that joy, you really see just how wonderful entomophagy can be.

SM:

Oh. Well, let's talk about entomophagy. So, did I get that right?

JC:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

SM:

So, let's talk about it in the past because obviously this is a history show as well. But I love them talking about this. So, tell us about the past and where you may have discovered some things there and brought it forward to the future as well.

JC:

Right, yeah. So, it's very clear that humans, early humans, other hominins, we all ate insects and they were a really important part of the diet. They're rich in protein, they're not hard to catch. And, you know, particularly if you're in a, you know, in a setting where you have this abundant resource. Why not use it? And, and the assumption that we would, as early humans, that we would opt to spend a lot of energy hunting, you know, I think, it’s, it's kind of like, you have your meal on your plate and you're gonna eat it, and it's gonna be delicious. And there’s not. . . there wasn't that sense, you know, of people thinking, oh my gosh, I'm eating insects. It was, that was the food that people were eating. And one of the most interesting recent findings actually looks at the value of insects as a benefit for pregnant, pregnant women and new moms through not just, you know, early human history, but to the very present as a resource that's easily accessible, high in protein, easily digestible and something that really supports the well-being of a new mother of a child that's say post weaning age and so forth. So, these are things that. . . . I think there's part of the story is we don't like thinking about eating this stuff. . .

SM:

Yeah.

JC:

. . . because if we don't eat them, you know. . . . But they were very much a part of the world.

SM:

And when you talk about those you talk, you know. . . . You always say that people who choose to eat insects always think of them as being very nutritional. The people who really do it. So, tell us about what they have in them, as it were. . .

JC:

Okay.

SM:

. . . and uh and you know they're apparently they're also useful for people trying to lose weight, which I need to do. I definitely need to do.

JC:

[Laughter]

SM:

But. . . so tell me about those. And let's go from that way.

JC:

Sure, sure. So, most, most insects that you're going to eat are very high in protein. The chapulin that we work with and the chapulineras – the women that produce them –chapulin can be up to 70% protein.

SM:

Wow.

JC:

Just pure protein. These are grasshoppers.

SM:

Yeah.

JC:

They also have a lot of trace elements. They're high in iron. They... So, in a funny way, they are useful in terms of fiber as well, because the exoskeletons are not usually digestible. And so that becomes kind of raw fiber in your system, as I understand it. One of the, one of the really cool things I like about grasshoppers is that they have an amino acid that when you cook them, they turn bright red like a lobster or a shrimp.

SM:

Yep.

JC:

And it's the same exact amino acids that are changing. So, it's very cool.

SM:

I wonder, yeah, I wonder are they related to those at all or do they just have the same. . .?

JC:

I don't know, there's actually a person who calls them land langostinos. So.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

I like that.

SM:

Well that's probably. . . . Yeah, I like that. That's probably a good way to describe them as anything.

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

You've also been, I know, have been telling us more about how they're, you've been telling us now, but how suitable they are for the planet. And it's one of those things that we should be, hopefully, trying to, but I think we're probably never going to have some areas that do, you know, you're not going to ask them to have, you know, in Ohio, perhaps. . .

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . or places like that. But you do tell us that they are very sustainable for all these reasons. Perhaps you can tell us about that.

JC:

So, yeah, so any of these, any of these insects are quite sustainable in terms of their production. I mean, they're small. They don't take up a lot of space. They actually don't use up a lot of resources. You don't have to give them a lot of inputs. Sometimes, you know, sometimes it can be a problem, right? I mean, you can have a swarm of locusts show up and destroy a field, and you're not really thinking that it's dinner, but it is. But you can farm them pretty easily. Grasshoppers are actually a little harder to farm than some of the other, other insects. . . .

SM:

When you say form them what do you mean?

JC:

So, if you want to farm, you can actually farm. . . .

SM:

Oh, farm, yeah.

JC:

Farm, yeah.

SM:

It's my British accent, I'm sorry, I couldn't get...

JC:

So, you can, I'm sorry. It's okay. I'm from Ohio, so you know. English might be my second language, I don't know.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

So, farming them, one of the things that you. . . that happens is, you. . . basically, you create a place for them to breed and grow. And it doesn't have to be really big, and it doesn't have to have lots of resources present. The insects don't eat a lot. They don't need a lot of space. So, you can, you can, support them pretty easily. There are some challenges around reproduction and breeding. Grasshoppers are a little less likely to breed in captivity than say crickets. Crickets are really easy to grow. The challenge. . . And this is something that we learned working, doing our research that we do. The challenge is that I might think a cricket and a grasshopper are almost the same sort of thing, but they're not. And the women that we work with were very clear that nobody should ever eat a cricket, that they taste horrible, that grasshoppers are sweet and crickets are bitter. And so, you want to stay away from them.

But crickets are being farmed, particularly for feed, in raising other sorts of animals. Crickets are also showing up in things like. . . as like amendments that you can put into flour to increase the protein levels.

SM:

Oh.

JC:

And you can find that stuff on, you know, if you go to any websites that, you know, marketing websites, you'll find advertisements for cricket flour that you can add or cricket flour that's been prepared to cook with. We did some experimenting here with the cricket flour, creating a couple of different treats for people and then, you know, asking them to sample and talk about what they were eating. And while you could taste the cricket and everything, it was not that hard to mask and make it pretty delightful.

SM:

Oh that's. . .  I love that. Maybe I'm gonna have to get myself some cricket flour and keep it. I wonder how long that would last as well. Would the crickets go off is the. . .

JC:

I don't, I don't, that I don't know. That's a really good question.

[Laughter]

SM:

Because the Neanderthals and some started to eat insects and they were considered, you know, you. . . the first people, really, to have them and you were telling this was about natal and neonatal care so before we move on let's talk about that neo. . . natal and neonatal care and that is for anyone listening who doesn't know that these are we're talking about childbirth.

So, tell us what you can or if there's anything we have discovered about the Neanderthals and the people after them. Did they. . . did they catch them just when they were out and about and then they decided to put them in things? Did they catch them because they wanted to? And then how you put those together into this neo. . . natal and neonatal care?

JC:

Yeah. So, the neonatal connection here is that it's a really good protein source. So, for a pregnant, for a Neanderthal waiting for their baby, I guess, it's a great protein source. And it's easily. . . it’s one that's probably easily accessible. So, one of the things that I would imagine people might have seen who are listening is some of the movies of Jane Goodall documenting. . .

SM:

Yeah. Yes.

JC:

. . . chimpanzees who are using tools to get termites and such to eat. And there, we can pretty much assume that was going something like that was going on, that, you know, Neanderthals or other early humans were using tools to actually harvest insects. And it might have been something as simple as, you know, a little piece of straw or something that was wet that could attract them. Or it might even be that they were farming, kind of farming the insects. So, we know that, for example, dating back at least 2500 years ago, we can find evidence of people breeding silkworms. . .

SM:

Oh, okay.

JC:

. . . and consuming them in the record. These are things found in ruins in Shanxi province in China. They show up in the Altamira caves. You can see paintings of edible insects and wild, wild bees. It’s, it’s. . . . They're there. They're there for us to find.

SM:

How. . . . What's interesting to me though is how, uh, the silk worms wouldn't have been kept because they produce silk rather than. . . . And I'm just wondering about that.

JC:

For eating, yeah. I don't quite know how they were consumed, but that's what the report I was reading was talking about.

SM:

Oh wow.

JC:

So, yeah.

SM:

So, tell us about though, once you've got them by the Neanderthals, how were they started to kind of be consumed by, you know, 2 billion people.

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

Which is a lot. It's a quarter of the population.

JC:

Right, right. It is a lot. And then again, I think the assumption that people are consuming them because they don't have access to the foods that they want is a mistake. They're consuming them because these are their traditions, and they love them and they taste good. And so, we find that while in the past, I mean, talking about the deep past, we might be talking about eating raw insects. A lot of what we see today are, they're being prepared. They're being cooked. They're being. . . they’re parts of dishes. In the communities that we're working in, people are eating sometimes raw, like the chicatanas that I mentioned, people just will run around and grab them and eat them, and they're just delicious. But they'll also do things like turn them into a filling for a taco, or they'll turn them into. . .

SM:

Which is what I had when I was there.

JC:

And they're delicious like that, honestly.

SM:

They are.

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

And for anyone listening who was going ooh I don't want to listen to this; this sounds horrible. . .

JC:

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . they are absolutely delicious.

JC:

They are.

SM:

I mean they really are delicious. Oh you're thinking about them.

JC:

Yeah, no, I completely agree. I'm happy to eat them. It's funny, the very first time I had them, I was with one of the men that I was working with, we were doing some interviewing, and he asked me if I wanted to try them. And he was so smart, he knew exactly how to present them to me, because he said, you know, gringos don't eat insects. So, he looks at me and he just says, these have so much protein and you won't get fat.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

He knew exactly what to say. So, I was hooked. I was hooked.

SM:

I think that I think all the people listening should listen to that.

[Laughter]

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

So, you've been talking about, you know, chimpanzees and things like that. You say that the early kind of hominins lived in like rich wooded environments. Was that what they were looking for?

JC:

That would be part of it. And it would not be hard to find because insects would just be there. And the range of possibilities is just, is just pretty dramatic. We think about eating a grub or eating a grasshopper. Most insects, you know, we can consume. Our challenge is that from the West, we're, we're disgusted by them. And so, it's hard to think about eating them. We would look at a bug and think that means that something's dirty, not something's ready to be eaten, so it makes it hard.

SM:

Now let's think about some of the other nations because you've talked about. . .

JC:

Sure.

SM:

. . . Mexico But let's talk about. . . . One of the first things I'm going to mention. So, my wife is Filipino.

JC:

Mm-hmm.

JC:

So, whenever she thinks about it, she thinks of something called salagubang. I think I've pronounced that correctly.

JC:

Uh-huh.

SM:

She'll probably shout to me from the other room if I've got that wrong.

JC:

[Laughter]

SM:

And what other things. . . . Because you were talking about how they're prepared.

JC:

Right.

SM:

So, let's talk about how they're prepared in such a... and again I love them when I've eaten them. I've eaten them in all these places. So, can you tell us about how they're prepared and particularly about salagubang? I hope I've got that right otherwise she'll kill me.

JC:

So that's one that I don't know a whole lot about. So, I apologize.

SM:

Okay.

SM:

But the production of, you know, of insects for consumption really follows very local traditions, I think. And so, one of the, one of the places that I've really enjoyed reading about is the presence of insect consumption in parts of West Africa. They have some really interesting traditions. And. . .

SM:

Which areas of West Africa because I have been there and I have a. . . .

JC:

So, this is in places like Burkina Faso. . .

SM:

Okay.

JC:

. . . and Nigeria and the Congo, among others. One of the things that's a real popular food is a caterpillar called – I'm not going to pronounce it, pronounce it right, but it’s a caterpillar called Serene, Serenia, and I'm not sure what the local name is. But it's one that's used in lots of different preparations, whether it's being kind of sauteed or deep fried, and it becomes an addition to a meal, but it's also become a part of several really incredible projects where women in particular are creating, are becoming very food secure. So, this, the celebration of these traditional foods and the fact that a lot of outsiders don't want to eat them. It sort of guarantees, you know, full, full stomachs and people enjoy eating these things. So, it's become like a real business model. And again, these are things that you can look for. There's a, there's several groups that are producing, working in collaboration with women in countries like Burkina Faso to market these, market insects, market caterpillars to the wider audience. And it's being picked up, which is really, really interesting. So, that’s, I think that's, that’s really quite cool. You can look at. . . . In Southeast Asia, throughout Southeast Asia, not just in the Philippines, but throughout the region, you see lots and lots of different examples of insect consumption, and lots and lots of different preparations whether it's kind of a silly preparation of a. . .

SM:

What do you mean?

JC:

. . . scorpion in a lollipop, you know. . .

SM:

Oh, you see that? Okay.

JC:

. . . for dessert or you know or something that's, that’s you know fried and ready to eat.

JC:

And, you know, again, if you. . . .

SM:

Which countries in Southeast Asia, apart from the Philippines, which we've mentioned, what kind of countries in southeast Asia would be eating insects? And again what I’m finding really interesting is that, you know, people look at the people in West Africa and. . .

JC:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . obviously that's had some food, you know, insecurity but they're not eating them because of that.

JC:

Right.

SM:

And that’s a. . . just. . . Could you talk me through that?

JC:

Yeah, yeah. So, you find that, again, because these are foods that are traditions, they’re. . . people are not, people are not being forced to make a choice to say, well, I'm hungry, this is what I have to eat. They're actually making choices about how they want to eat. And one of the things they want to eat are these insects. So, whether it's a chapulin in Mexico, a caterpillar in Burkina Faso, a scorpion in Thailand, all these things kind of come together. And they, for. . . again, for us, from the outside, coming from Western countries, we look at it and we think, wow, that's just so weird and just so off-putting. But for the people who grow up with these traditions, it's like popping popcorn in your mouth. And in fact, the...

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

That's one of the ways people talk about the grasshoppers. They're like popcorn.

SM:

Oh.

JC:

So, you just get to eat them.

SM:

Out of interest are there any western, you know, kind of nations like in the EU or anything that is, are eating insects not as a kind of – here I am and I'm eating an insect, aren't I clever –

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

But is there any ones who are eating insects?

JC:

Well, I'm not sure that we're eating insects, but we're certainly eating insect byproducts because you find honey everywhere. And so, we all love honey. And, you know, don't think very long about what honey might be.

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

[Laughter]

SM:

Yeah.

JC:

But we do all enjoy it.

SM:

Yeah, no, absolutely. I've got a jar here that I'm using to, you know. . .

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . for sweetening, you know, whatever I'm eating. So, I love that a lot. So, it's very interesting.

Okay. Now, let's talk about some, let’s talk about some history as well.

JC:

Sure.

SM:

Because you're, you know, you've got a lot of recipes, but particularly, you know, the, the mole chicatana.

JC:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

So, let's talk about just talk us through the recipes that you've got because they are. . .

JC:

Sure.

SM:

. . . really great when I've heard them.

JC:

So, I'm an anthropologist by training and, you know, the majority of my life I have spent studying migration patterns of migration. And I can tell you that I made a big mistake because I should have been studying food all along.

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

Because when you study food, you get to eat it.

SM:

Yes, yes you do.

JC:

And when you get to eat it, it's all very delicious.

SM:

Yes, you do.

JC:

And so, I... So just a few recipes that are just, I think, super special. And one of them is, it's called mole de chicatana. And a mole is a sauce that is very common to Southern Mexican cuisine.

SM:

Delicious type of food.

JC:

It represents lots of different sauces. This one is, is a chocolate and chile sauce.

SM:

Oh.

JC:

And so, what you want to start with. . .

SM:

I'm feeling really, I'm feeling really hungry now.

JC:

Yeah, I know. I know.

SM:

Because they're so great, the mole that we get there. Anyway. Anyway.

[Laughter]

JC:

If you come to Columbus, I'll take you to a really good mole shop. We have, we have one, so it's very, very good. I love going there.

So, they don't serve mole de chicatanas, but this is how we would do this. Part of the reason they can't serve mole de chicatanas is that these are critters that show up very briefly at the start of the rainy season. They emerge from their, their, their, their nests and you just got to grab them and eat them.

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

So, you take about a kilo, so it's about what? Two and a half pounds of flying ants, which sounds, I'm sure it sounds really exciting. You prepare them by quickly boiling them. You put them into boiling water, just very briefly. So, it just, you know, that's how you prepare them. And in the water, you've got some salt and some garlic and maybe some onion, okay?

SM:

Yep.

JC:

And then what you want to do is get your mole together. And so, because I work with people who don't really have cookbooks, this is what they tell me. They say, you wanna get about a kilo of mole. And so, you wanna get enough oregano, onions, cinnamon, raisins, fried plantains, some breadcrumbs, some chicken, some guajillo chilies, and some ancho chilies. And you're gonna throw all of that together into a pot. And then you're going to add your chicatanas to that pot. And...

SM:

You put here that you remove the head. I wonder how people. . .

JC:

Ah.

SM:

. . . began to understand removing the head.

JC:

Right. I'm sorry. Yes, I skipped that. You have to remove the heads. Generally, it's not a hard thing to do, so particularly after they've been cooked. So, you. . . And then you need to grind up the, you grind up the chicatana. So, they're not really, they’re not floating in the mole, but they're part of the mole. They're integrated as a flavor into the mole. And then you fix up your chicken. You basically would take a piece of chicken, um, and then, um, put it on the plate. You have your mole sauce that has the chicatanas kind of integrated into it and you, you pour it over, over the top. It's, um, absolutely delicious. Eat it with some rice and some tortillas. It's amazing.

SM:

We'll get people to, if you don't mind, when we share some of them, we'd love to share some of these online on Eat My Globe.

JC:

Sure.

SM:

And another one that you've mentioned is Sal de Gusano, is that right? Which is...

JC:

Mm-hmm. So, Sal de Gusano is like a flavor. It's a salt.

SM:

Okay.

JC:

It translates as worm salt. And it's made with...

SM:

I love this.

[Laughter]

JC:

It sounds so... I know that sounds so delicious, doesn't it? So, it's made with the, the, the worms or the larvae that are found inside of a mage cactus that you're going to make. . . and you know, you're going to use that cactus or the agave you're going to use it to make tequila or mezcal. And you'll take the you take the little the critters out and you. . . . Again, you cook them, they turn red, you grind them up, you add them to just regular salt, and you. . . . And it and it makes this very pungent kind of salty um topping.

SM:

It's like adding truffles to salt.

[Laughter]

JC:

Sure, exactly.

[Laughter]

SM:

I'm certain here in Los Angeles we could buy those fairly easily.

JC:

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

SM:

I'm going to have to go and try it. Oh.

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

What I love about this and the whole episode is that we. . . I get so excited by everything that I have to go and try them all.

Even you, when you're talking about the incense they sound so delicious and you have that worm salt and it's oh. Anyway. So, those are great recipes so thank you for that. but let's talk about some of the other nations. Let's talk about the future.

So, tell us what they were doing and then tell us when we've sort of when we come to the future – is it always going to be in America or Britain in those kind of places it always going to be something that anyone takes just because.

JC:

There are a lot of researchers, particularly in Europe, who are really pushing a shift to eating the consumption of insects. And it’s. . .  I wish I felt more positive about what they're trying to do. I, I feel like it’s, I feel like it's, it’s a nice goal, I'm not sure it's a goal that we can get to anytime soon. It's not that humans can't eat insects because we absolutely can. And there are more than enough people eating them every day to show us that we can do this. It's that in, you know, Western cultural systems, we don't eat them and we tend to, we tend to think of them as dirty and dangerous. And so, it makes it really, really hard. One of the ways that you find lots of North Americans eating insects is they'll eat them as a dare, or they'll eat them as something sort of special. They'll come to a place like Oaxaca where I work, and they want to try chapulin so that they can say that they've tried them.  They don't want to try them to start eating them.

SM:

Why do you think that is? Why do they have a very separate, you know, from the two billion people who eat them and love them. Why do you think that is?

JC:

I think it has a lot to do with what's called this yuck factor, which is insects are just assumed to be yuck. And therefore, people are, are. . . . People will not pick them. They're, they're off putting. And it's, and it's surprising because work has taken place where, you know, researchers ask the everyday person, like, would you eat an insect? And nine, you know, very often they'll say, sure, absolutely. But that's, it's sort of fantasy rather than reality. And the reality is that they really won't, even though they might voice a kind of a willingness. It's unfortunate because the opportunity and the value that shifting the diet towards insects could carry are just positives, right? It's a very high protein food. It makes a very small impact on the environment. It's the kind of food that really anybody can eat. There's not a lot of things that would say, well, you can't eat them. I mean, there's some evidence that there are places where insects have. . . are contaminated and that we have to be careful about. But farming. . .

SM:

Where would that be?

JC:

Well, there are certain places where, whether it's through the, the, the pots and pans that are being used to process them, that sometimes some dangerous things like heavy metals can get into the, into them. But, you know, if there were rules on farming and they were being farmed, that stuff could actually be, you know, organized and managed. So, I think there is a future. One of the other challenges though is that that future, when it's somebody from like the United States, a food specialist who says to somebody from another part of the world, well you should eat insects, and that person says why, and the person says well because it's a smart way for you to eat. That's probably not the right answer, right?

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

You really want to encourage people to do these things because it's yummy, it's the history. I think there's space for what some people have called a renaissance in entomophagy, it's reappearance as a thing. But the challenge is how do we move it from someone saying, oh, great, I ate a bug, let me tell all my friends to. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

. . . you know, I'm having chicatanas because it's seasoned and they are just delicious.

SM:

Oh, and they do sound delicious. So, tell me about, you know, so I was beginning to ask, you know, how other nations were eating or began to eat them, and so you were telling me that there was a kind of a new tour. . . tourism industry that people were going to whether it's West Africa, whether it's Southeast Asia and eating them not because it's a dare, not because of anything but, you know, they wanted to try them so is that happening now?

JC:

That is happening, and it's happening in lots and lots of places where people will go to certain restaurants or they'll you know the restaurants will kind of come to them and they'll have the day right here. Let's taste the bugs.

One of the things that's really cool is that you find lots of tours that, you know, so you get to a place right you get to Thailand and you go on a tour of the markets and that that'll be part of the tour is trying these things. You come to Oaxaca and you get on a tour of one of the city's markets. And part of the tour is trying, trying Chapulin, for example. So, it's getting this stuff in front of people. And that's, I think, really exciting. And it's a real positive way to grow acceptance maybe.

SM:

Oh. We've talked through that, and we've talked about their answer to hunger, so I think we've come... But what do you think their future is?

JC:

I would say they're not gonna disappear, right? The people who love insects, the two billion people who eat them, they're not gonna stop. This is a really important part of their diet. I think we'll see some growth in other places of people beginning to eat. There's some people that will shift their diet for ethical reasons. Some people that will shift their diet for health reasons. So those will be, those won't ever be big populations, but they'll be interesting pieces of the puzzle, I think. And, you know, there's always a possibility that the successes that these tours programs have will translate into more people feeling more comfortable about eating insects will actually see a real increase. It could be, it would be good for the planet. That's absolutely clear, because they are sustainable. There's some funny, there’s some funny outcomes. There is some work that shows that where they're very speci. . . . The insects are very specific that are eaten. There are some examples of them being over-harvested.

SM:

Oh wow.

JC:

Which is a bit of a surprise. But that’s . . . I think that's an exception, not really, not really the rule.

SM:

I think it’s a good ending because you're saying they could be good for the planet. And that for me is the thing that we should always come back to, so, I think, from that point of view.

Now, let's see. If Jeffrey was a meal what would it be?

JC:

Yeah, this is a hard one because I really love eating.

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

And it's one of the reasons it's one of the reasons I do what I do. But I decided sweet and sour style brisket.

SM:

Oh, that sounds good.

JC:

That would be me. Made with tomato sauce and onions and celery and carrots and potatoes. Very slowly roasted in a Dutch oven for a good part of a day with maybe some fresh challah on the side.

SM:

Oh.

[Laughter]

JC:

Now I'm really hungry.

[Laughter]

SM:

That sounds like the sort of thing that they would cook the day before like a Sabbath meal. Is that. . . .

JC:

Yes.

SM:

Oh. And, I. . .

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . I’ve been to many Sabbath with my friends and that’s the sort of thing they would cook. Oh.

JC:

Yeah, it's...

SM:

I’m really hungry now. Oh.

JC:

Me too.

SM:

Oh gosh, I'm just gonna have a thought and think about that for a moment. Oh. Right.

[Laughter]

Okay. If Jeffrey had to go back in time to any meal or any point in time for that meal where would that be?

JC:

Yeah. So, this is one that I had to, I didn't have to think about very long because while there are lots of cool meals I could be a part of, I, there's one meal that I can't have anymore and this is my grandmother's stuffed cabbages.

SM:

Oh.

JC:

And so, she was a, just an amazing cook. She was Russian and she would make all of this just amazing Eastern European food. And the thing that she would always make me for my birthday was stuffed cabbage. And I can. . . . Honestly, when I talk about it, I can smell it and I can taste it. It's just that much in there. And if I could just have one more meal with her that I would be so happy to be able to go back there.

SM:

I could probably. . . . I, I've yeah. . . . I've had like a Polish version of that when I had a, you know, long time ago when I had an old Polish girlfriend and she used to make that for me all the time and it was so. . . . I mean it was different obviously. . .

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . but similar I think but it was so. . . taste. . .  oh gosh.

JC:

Yeah. I can get delicious Polish stuffed cabbage here in Columbus and the woman that runs this, the little place, it's in the North Market here in Columbus.

SM:

Yeah, yeah.

JC:

She and I talk about like my grandmother's cut stuffed cabbage and her stuffed cabbage. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

. . . and what makes them same and what makes them different. And yeah, it's a wonderful thing.

SM:

I actually love some of the Eastern European cooking that we get and I get that mostly when I go back to the UK because there's a lot of people from that part of the world . . .

JC:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . coming over to the UK and they are just oh.

JC:

So, any good meal of stuffed cabbage when it was with my grandmother, there was always a big box of what were called bow ties. And these they're just they're like deep fried dough that are twisted. So, it looks like a little bow tie with sugar on top. And, uh, they’re bland.

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

They're. . . I don't, I don't know, but they just always went with dinner. So, they always went with stuffed cabbage. You always had to have it.

SM:

I think you bring into that things that you enjoyed. My grandmother, my Welsh grandmother always used to make cheese straws that they would just pastry with a little bit of cheese on them.

But I think it's because she made them and they were great.

JC:

It's exactly it. That's exactly it. Yeah.

SM:

Yeah oh I absolutely agree and I. . . . different areas but my Welsh grandmother was to me was one of the great bakers in the world. Whether she was or not, I don't care. But she was.

JC:

[Laughter]

For you, it works.

SM:

Okay.

JC:

Yeah. Yeah.

SM:

I love this.

Now, if you had to go back in time to see an invention of anything, you tell me.

JC:

I decided I want to go with peanut butter.

SM:

Oh.

JC:

But not just any peanut butter, it has to be American peanut butter because for me, peanut butter is the most amazingly important invention. You will never be hungry if you have a jar of peanut butter. And you, and it'll always be fresh. I mean, I would imagine it might go bad, but generally it'll be fresh whenever you need it. And you can't find American peanut butter in lots of other places, or if you can, it's just incredibly expensive.

SM:

Yeah.

JC:

So, one of the things, I mean, I've been doing a lot, I've done research as an anthropologist for quite a long time. And whenever I go, wherever I go, I always bring a jar of peanut butter with me.

SM:

Oh.

JC:

And it's because I know if I have peanut butter, I'm not gonna be hungry. I'll be able to eat something. And so, for me, I'm gonna say, yeah, peanut butter is just about the most important invention.

SM:

Now but I’m gonna I’m gonna ask you now because it's an important question very important. Crunchy or smooth?

JC:

Ooh. Crunchy.

SM:

Good. I'm on your side then. Phew.

[Laughter]

JC:

[Laughter]

SM:

And before we go, finally, let's talk about your social media and all that stuff because there's so many of them now. TikTok and Instagram and X, I think it's called. So, if you're on any of those just tell me what you. . . .

JC:

I'm rather, I'm quite a luddite.

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

I'm not actually on a lot of these things. I. . . . The best, one of the best ways to find me is to find me through my work, through my university. So, at Ohio State, I am part of the anthropology department. I have a. . . You can get to the department's page and I'm on the faculty there and it'll take you to my website. I actually have a lab that I run called the Transnational Research Lab and it's housed under my, my home page there. So if you go to Ohio State or if you just type in Jeffrey Cohen at Ohio State, it'll take you to my, to my site. And that's probably one of the best ways to find me. There you'll learn about the books I've written, articles I have, what my amazing students do every day, and some of the great things that we do here at Ohio State.

SM:

Fantastic. Um Jeffrey I have to say thank you because you know I wasn't expecting this. It was a thought that I’d never had and then you wrote to me and I went, that's a great idea. And I love when people write to me particularly when there is people as brainy as you are.

[Laughter]

JC:

[Laughter]

Thank you, thank you.

SM:

And so, first of all, thank you. This has been a terrific conversation and you have been a fantastic guest. So, if anyone else is listening and they're kind of in this area or if they're in a different area but they think I should cover it, please, please do what Jeffrey did and write to me and then I’ll consider it. But Jeffrey this was a delight. Thank you very, very much.

JC:

Thank you for the opportunity. It was just, it's kind of like a dream.

SM:

[Laughter]

JC:

So, because I really like your show and to be on it is pretty neat.

SM:

Fantastic.

OUTRO MUSIC

Simon:

Make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www.EatMyGlobe.com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

And, if you like what you hear, please don’t forget to join us on Patreon, subscribe, recommend us to your family and friends and give us a good rating on your favorite podcast provider.

Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE: Things You Didn’t Know You Didn’t Know About Food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

[Ring sound]

We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help both with the editing of the transcripts and essential help with the research.