Eat My Globe Podcast

Interview with World Gourmand, 

and Award-Winning TV Host & Author,

Andrew Zimmern

INTRO MUSIC

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

Hi everybody. I am Simon Majumdar, creator and host of the food podcast, Eat My Globe, a podcast that aims to tell you the things you didn't know you didn't know about food. And in today's very special episode, we have someone who really deserves no introduction, but I'm gonna do one anyway. I could tell you about his TV career from “Bizarre Foods” to a show such as “Family Dinner” for Magnolia TV, and of course the new iteration of “Iron Chef: Quest for an Iron Legend.” I could tell you about his books, which have spanned from “The Bizarre Truth” to “Alliance of World Explorers, Volume One: AZ and the Lost City of Ophir,” a book which won a Gold IPPY in juvenile fiction. And I could also tell you about his many awards such as James Beard, which I believe he’s won on what, four occasions? And he has been described by Eater as, knows more about the food of the world and the history of modern gastronomy than anyone else in our solar system. He's a walking, talking food encyclopedia and a true omnivore. But in the end, if I just mentioned his name – Andrew Zimmern – that will be all you truly need to know. So, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Andrew Zimmern.

It's such an honor to have you just appearing on the show and it, it's such an honor just to have you.

Andrew Zimmern (“AZ”):

Oh, come on.

SM:

Yeah. No, no.

AZ:

Come on.

SM:

It is, and I've had so many people appear on the show and you've been like one of the number ones I want to get on. So, it makes such a difference to me to have you on. So, thank you very much.

AZ:

The subject, and I know there's lots of people with lots of experiences and you're able to talk to them about a lot of different things and pull out the stuff that you need, but knowing what the content wheel is and the subject matter is and sort of what interests you and we, we've talked about this for years and especially the first time we met, we both have a predisposition for, you know, probably lavishing more importance on some of these things than others.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

But I think we're both in the same kids' tub when it comes to these kind of historical and cultural moments in our food lives. So, I was. . .  I just love, love the whole thing. So, I'm excited to be here.

SM:

Well, fantastic. And before we go on to talk about that, and before we go and explain to the listeners what we're going to have, perhaps you could just tell us about what's going on in your world, what's making you excited at the moment. . .

AZ:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . before we go on to history and fun.

AZ:

Whatever you wanna do.

SM:

Just the thing. . . Just the things that are exciting you right now and then we'll move on to some of these because, you know, a lot of these, as I said, I've been to as well. . .

AZ:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . so, it's fun for me to talk about them. But just the things that are exciting you with what you are doing in, at the moment.

AZ:

Oh gosh. You know, I'm, I’m one of those people who does way more than they probably should. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . in the sense that, you know, it's, it’s always good to be, you know, a mile deep and an inch wide. You know, I’m, I'm jealous of the, you know, the, the Tim Ferris's of the world or whatever. I do, I do one thing and then I keep looking at the Gary Vaynerchucks of the world who's, you know, about 18 miles wide and inch thin. But in looking at people like Gary, I, I realize they go when it's required to like bring the equipment in and just dig deep, they, they do that. And I guess that's, that’s kind of my style. I have. . . I realize the other day I have a whole bunch of shows on a whole bunch of different networks and that's kind of, that’s kind of fun. I wouldn't have imagined that I would've gotten here. I thought I would still be making, you know, season 23 of Bizarre Foods. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . when that show ended, we had just had our best rating season ever, but the network changed over from Ghost from Food and Travel to Ghost and Paranormal and then, you know, they bought up my contract so I was on the sideline for a while and that was great. Then COVID hit and I was just trying to keep all of our businesses alive, which was, you know, one of those things that sort of barely happened, but we squeaked through and with less. . .  you know, with a lot of pain but less dead bodies in the wake of our boats. So that was good. And, you know, right now, you know, “Family Dinner” on Magnolia is. . .

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

. . . is a treacly sweet of a show. I mean, it’s, it’s not very common. I explain people like, Oh, what is that? And I'm like, I go to someone's house for dinner. I mean that's literally all it is.

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

But we're able to, like, tell stories of people that, you know, viewers say, Oh yeah, that's my neighbor, or that's me, or that's my uncle Ted. And there's something, I think about it, you know, there's no restaurant food, there's no pretension. You know, the line that we get the most is, Well, I'm surprised you like it so much, it's just pear pie. Well, yeah, but it's, it’s pear. . . I mean, just. . . there was a hundred-year-old pear tree on this ranch in Texas and I, I know it's a French varietal because when it's ripe it's super hard and it has that leathery skin and it's perfect for baking and. . .

SM:

Mmmm.

AZ:

. . . this family, they just have this tradition of always making this pear pie down on this ranch and the horses love it and the wild hogs love it. And they. . . You know, there’s so much life that revolves around this pear pie. So, this pear tree. So, it's actually a sort of a more complex show than I people. . . I think people realize. And that actually excites me tremendously. To go in and meet a family every weekend and sort of not know where it's gonna go is fun for me.

Wild Game Kitchen is the first stand and stir show that I've ever done. I've been asked to do them for like 20 years and I've done them online digital stuff for myself on our website and on our YouTube, but I've never done something like Wild Game Kitchen on the Outdoor Channel, which is for a completely different audience than I've ever. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . been around or exposed to. But I'm a lifelong outdoors person and I've, I’ve spent time hunting and fishing my entire life and we did a ton of it in Bizarre Foods all around the world and in some of my other shows. So, it's, it’s great to show people like, Hey, I'm doing this with Pheasant, but you know, you can do this with chicken or Cornish Hen or, you know, pork chops. I mean the technique is still the same and, you know, yummy sides and shot in a beautiful setting and we just wrapped season three of that and season one isn't even done airing yet. So, I. . .

SM:

Wow.

AZ:

. . . I think it's gonna be a big, a big change for them and I'm hoping that my audience swings over to see it because I think they'll see the same old me doing something different. I'm real curious, and you've been around this business for a long time to see if the Outdoor Channel crowd appreciates, you know, someone like me coming into their world. So, I’m, I’m. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

I'm coming in very respectfully and very graciously and not assuming anything about their viewers, but cooking great Wild Game, which is a blast. Iron Chef hopefully gets picked up again. I'm excited about that. I mean the world of the streamers is, is. . . you know, a. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

It's almost like a. . . It reminds me of a Marvel movie.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

You know, I mean, is, is the world gonna change tomorrow? Will our superheroes prevail? Will things be the same without them? I think, I think things have irrevocably changed because streamers can put on hundreds and hundreds of episodes of someone like me and it becomes new for a new generation becomes. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . successful for them. Therefore why, why buy new, right?, when, when the couch is still good? It’s, it kind of reminds me of someone's grandmother’s house with those plastic covers on. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . on chairs and couches. Everything is as brand new. So, we'll see what happens. But I'm, you know, super lucky to be doing so many different things on so many different networks and I just wrapped another thing I've never done before, which is judging a baking show. Now. . .

SM:

Whoa.

AZ:

I know, I know a lot about a lot of things in the, the, the food travel culture space. I am not a baker. I, I, you know, if you came my house for dessert, if you came my house for dinner tomorrow and there were six or eight people, there's like five things I make. I do them really well, but I'm not a baker. And, so, it's a fascinating thing. So, we just wrapped an eight-episode season of the Silos Baking Competition that we shot down in Texas at Chip and Jo's silos in Waco, which is a huge complex of shops. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . and stores and bakeries and food halls. And it was great in front of a live au. . . audience as live and it, it was just, it was delightful. I had, I had an absolute blast doing it and of course everyone down there is so nice. I’m. . ., you know, I’m. . .  just, just being in a neutral gear, I became the, the mean judge, which I sort of . . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

thought was. . .

SM:

Hey, that's my role.

AZ:

I know exactly, but that’s. . . You know, and I was about to say, if you just, if you just talk honestly to someone these days, you're perceived as somehow being cruel or unkind. . .

SM:

Yes. Yes.

AZ:

. . . when in fact, you know, I, I remember in my restaurant days, one of my great mentors in the restaurant business, Elio Guaitolini, who was the head waiter at Elaine’s for years and years and years and then opened up Elios and Petaluma and he comes from the Elaine’s in New York tree of, of restaurateuring. He told me something really invaluable once. He said, the person who gets up from the table and leaves and you ask them at the front door, you know, How was your dinner? Did you enjoy yourself this evening? And they're like, Oh it was great. But they walk out and they had a problem and they never come back. Is, is your. . . that's your worst nightmare. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . because you don't learn anything from what the mistake that you've made. And they then go out and become the poison seed in their friendship group two weeks later when someone says, Oh, let's go to Freddy's Bar and Grill and like, Oh, I didn't really have such a great time. And you kind of picks at all the different couples wanna, wanna get into. So, I've, I’ve always found that in, in our space it's much better to just tell people, you know, here's what I liked, here's what I didn't like so that they know and they can, you know, as we say in the recovery world, they can take what they need and leave the rest. And I think that's. . . I think that’s a powerful, at least for me, has been a powerful way to go through life and has kept my, you know, I mean the center of the highway without bumping into the guardrails too often when it comes to talking to people about their food, their product, their music, you know, whatever. So. . .

SM:

Well yes, I agree. I, I think I find, A, having the English accent and then telling the truth. . .

AZ:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . makes me seem very mean, but I'm not now. And hopefully people have just learnt that over the however many years it is I've been 14 years or 13 years.

AZ:

Yeah, I mean it’s, it’s. . . Well, well, I mean I watch you on TV, you're, you’re knowledgeable and you come off as smart and, and straightforward. But I think some people take it that way when you're talking to someone. I remember people would, would talk to me about Chopped and they would say, Oh yeah, I saw you back in the days when networks didn't have such, you know, restrictions around exclusivity.

SM:

Oh yes.

AZ:

And I would be asked to go judge something and I'd say yes cuz my friends were involved. And they'd say, Oh ju. . . Chopped, who’s that, there’s that mean judge? And I'd be like, Mean judge, what do you mean, mean judge?

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

You know the, the lady? And I'd be like, Alex Guarnaschelli. And they're like, I say, that's the nicest, I mean the sweetest. . . she just tells it like it is, you know.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

I mean maybe that guy shouldn't have made smoked salmon and fudge ice cream.

SM:

Oh.

[Laughter]

AZ:

It's a bad, you know, you really gotta be good to nail that. It's a, it’s a crazy world that we, that we live in. So… And I have a couple other fun projects, you know, that keep me, you know. . . We have the Patty & Frank's hamburger and hot dog concept that I opened down in Atlanta. That's growing and I'm working on a big book that has recipes from the history of my life. So that's a giant project because I'm old.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

And, you know, I mean a lot of little things in there. I'm not. . . You know, sometimes people move quickly and do a lot of things to avoid looking at something painful, you know.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

And, and I get that because that, that was me. But I think there's a, a power that gets reclaimed when at least you're honest and say, you know, there are parts of my life that are, are really not great, you know, and, and that could be saying, I'm going through in a given year or month or it could be something more long term. And work gives me a place to not think about that all the time. And, and I try to refocus it, like, you know, I'll come home from a day of cooking on a set and I'll make dinner for the family and everyone is like, Well why are you, you know, why are you cooking? You know, don't you wanna relax? I'm like, No, cooking dinner is my relaxation.

SM:

Yes it is relaxing.

AZ:

That gets me, my day is behind me. I'm just roasting a chicken. It's not a big deal. And it, it. . . I don't keep going as a, as a tool of avoidance. I keep going as a tool so I don’t brea. . . so the bus doesn't break down.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

And I think, I think there's a small difference and there’re. . . You know, I'm pretty public about it, you know, it’s. . .  You know, I’ve been sober for 31 years, and you know, I have some, you know, parenting challenges in my life and other challenges in my life that are, you know, and I'm not complaining. It’s just, that’s, that’s the cards that I was dealt. And being able to focus on several things, if there is such a way to describe it, is helpful to me.

SM:

I, I think that's great. We are looking at your life in the history of restaurants.

AZ:

Yep.

SM:

So, I want to know before we go on to the five or what that we've picked, how do you. . .  I mean, I know that me trying to pick restaurants is, is hard. . .

AZ:

Yes.

SM:

. . . cause I've been to quite a few around the world and you've been to many more. And so, I mean just for you to come up with five was an interesting one. So, before we start. . .

AZ:

Well. . .

SM:

. . . I want to know how you came up with these five. . .

AZ:

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . because it could be, I'm sure, it could be one of a gazillion.

AZ:

Well, here's the, here’s the thing. I had like, I had like 30 that I wiggled to 15 that made it to 12 or 10 that I sent you and you said let's do these five cuz I said I'll talk about any of these 10.

SM:

Right.

AZ:

And it is, it is fascinating. I've, I’ve been obsessed with restaurants my entire life. My father was obsessed with restaurants, my mother was obsessed with restaurants. My grandmother, even though she only went out three times a month to restaurants, they were very, very specific. You know, this Chinese restaurant, this German restaurant, this deli, this appetizing and smoked fish place. And it was. . . and there were real reasons behind it and she wouldn't have any argument about, there was no telling her that the best, you know, Ho Yu Gai Poo wasn't at Richard May's King Dragon, you know. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . in the sixties, you know, on 73rd and Third. I mean there was just no getting around it. And I, I love restaurant, I love what they represent. I love the snapshots . . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . and time culturally. . .

SM:

Yes.

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . that they have come to, to stand for. I also think historically, and, and, you know, I know I'm playing fast and loose with the rules here, but you and your audience will get what I mean. A restaurant, and it’s cha. . . sadly it's changed over the last four or five years and seems to be changing and it’s, it's kind of upsetting to me. But if you go back even like 10 years ago, restaurants were the one place that, you know, a prince and a pauper could find themselves in the same room together.

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

You know, the, the. . . . Certain restaurants have now been co-opted into places only for the elite where they sort of weed out everyone else. And I find that, I find that distasteful. I find it antithetical to what the idea of a restaurant is all about. You know, I remember as a kid, you know, there’s wow, there's a movie star in that corner and the governor of New York is in that corner and in the other corner is, is a cab driver celebrating his 10th wedding anniversary. I mean that to me was, as a, as a young person in my twenties, thirties, forties, fifties was, was one of the things that I thought was magical about restaurants was the group in that room. And it changed every hour as tables flipped over. Some restaurants became something different at 10:30 at night when they went to a late-night menu than they were at 7:30. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . but, and a whole different. . .

SM:

Is that only in America, do you think? Oh sorry.

AZ:

Well, I do, I do think so because in America they had a thing, you know, a, a proper restaurant in Europe or Asia, like once, once dinner is done, dinner is done, you know. Some people, and, and I'll go back to, you know, Keith McNa, Keith McNally and his then first wife Lynn Wagenknecht who opened Odeon and sort of changed dining in New York City and all of a sudden everybody was open all day with these big grand cafes. But then at 10 o'clock at night it became the place everyone gathered and you could walk into Odeon at two in the morning and order food. Keith wrote something, he's one of my favorite follows on Instagram and, and I absolutely adore him for a ton of different reasons, but he revealed a very seldom spoken about rule at, at Balthazar, which is, which was one of his restaurants that. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . that while the kitchen closes at midnight or 1 AM on weekends, they do not ask people to leave. So, if there's people just hanging out talking, slow dancing to the music, they, the staff stays. People stay. You, no one is kicked out. And, and to me that’s. . . those are beautiful egalitarian ideas about the concept of dining in a place other than your own home. And we now have restaurants that when I eat in them, seemingly, and I say seemingly because I'm not in on the meetings and I don't wanna judge too much, but if you don't judge, how do you keep score?

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

The. . . that, that seemingly only will allow certain people in. It's like the days of the red velvet rope. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

AZ:

. . . outside of the nightclub where you can't come in, that you can't come in thing. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

AZ:

. . . is, is. . . I hope it goes away because I don't want it to destroy the thing that I love the most and I have, I have a sense that it will go away or at least be partitioned into this small little world because those people who go to those restaurants are actually the 100th of 1% of diners and we're still gonna have restaurants that understand that they should be for anyone at any time, any place, anywhere.

SM:

Well yeah, you definitely have that a bit here in Los Angeles because obviously the celebrities and all of that. But I think what you've chosen here is I think a reaction to what you are saying because they're not. . . I mean, all of these. . . I mean, let's start, let’s start with Katz and Russ & Daughters because. . .

AZ:

Sure.

SM:

I've, I’ve been there and, but you obviously go there for, you know, you’re saying here, four generations of, of Zimmern youth and you going there and eating there at a different. . .

AZ:

Yeah.

SM:

So, let's talk about. . . for people who don't know and what we're doing here is we've asked Andrew to really come up with five restaurants that he's loved but have someplace in history because what we do is a history show. And he's started with the first one, which is Katz, and well, it's two restaurants.

AZ:

[Laughter]

They're inseparable for me. They’re inseparable.

SM:

And, and to me they, they are, because I go to Katz, I walk across to Russ & Daughters and it's all, I'm very full at the end of it. But I do it.

[Laughter]

And so let, let me speak to you because Katz now is becoming very popular again. I've noted. I mean, it was always popular and people going in. But now it's mentioned on TikTok. I mean there's thousands of people on TikTok going, Oh this is what you do when you go into Katz. This is what you do when you go into Russ & Daughters. And they're talking about it more than I think it's been talked about for some years. . .

AZ:

Yup.

SM:

. . . because it was always a kind of thing for New Yorkers.

AZ:

Yes. Yes.

SM:

So, I'd love to know what you think about it.

AZ:

Well, it's, it’s interesting that, that the, you know, the Cucina Povera of my people. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . I'm, I’m a Jewish New Yorker, is, has become the, the must have food item. I mean, I would imagine that, you know, a while ago someone told me that the third largest tourist attraction in New York City by, by attendance had become Eataly. And I believe that for a lot of people when they go to New York, even if it's, they go every year. And I have friends here in Minnesota that do a yearly December holiday time, long weekend in New York just to enjoy it during that time of year, which is a special time. You know, you gotta go to Katz’s. You gotta go to Russ’. If you don't do that, have you really been to New York? Right?

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

If you haven't eaten a sandwich in a big, doesn't mean you go on every trip. But to your point, what's fascinating is, I mean both of them are over a hundred years old. Both of them are on, you know, what was used to be considered the Lower East Side.

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

Both of them were built in, you know, what was the, the, the Jewish ghetto of New York City. And they opened and served their neighborhood. That is, that is what they did. Like all great restaurants, they opened their doors and served their neighborhood friends and families. And over the course of, you know, over a hundred years in both cases, they have created a legendary and legacy business that miraculously, and this is the part that is so unique about these two places, have sort of remained unchanged. And actually some of the other places that are on the list that we'll get to later, that the same thing maybe with, even in the case of one that's been opened for centuries, it, it hasn't changed that much. I, you know. . . Katz is, you know, you wait on line, you know, you get your ticket, you go in, you order a sandwich and by gosh, by the time you get to the man at the counter who's gonna make it, you better know what you are eating.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

Because in typical New York style, he will move you on.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

He will just tell you, take a step back and he'll bring the next person in by pointing until you're ready. And you get so embarrassed cuz everyone looks at you like you've been on line for an hour. You don't know whether you want corned. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . beef or pastrami or Turkey. I mean, come on. But it's those ancients, I mean they, I'd, I’d like to think they're the original steamers that went in there because, you know, they're custom made. If they're cleaned right they would last forever. But they have these giant steamers where the roasted meats are kept. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . so that they're moist, you know, and someone dips down into a hidden place that you can't see.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

And I think this is the best part, with a big meat fork and that's your moment. That is your one moment to jump in there and say no fatty end of the brisket or fatty end of the pastrami or corned beef.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

I mean that's. . .

SM:

That’s the best, the best.

AZ:

It is. But if you don't say it, he's just going in and picking and they'll usually give a little bit of each, but that's your moment to tell him what your preference is. And it is primar. . ., I think it's all men. There’s, there’s one. . .  I was just there a couple months ago, there's, there’s one lady who’s, who’s at the far end handling a lot of sides and things like that. It used to be all very old men. And now they have a bunch of young guys in there whose knife skills are incredible. You know. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . there are, there are people there. Their sole job, someone else is actually sliding the bread across. They just cut meat for eight hours every day with a razor blade of a slicing knife. And the clinking, it almost sharpens itself against the fork. And they build these incredible sandwiches. I went there first with my grandmother and my father in the sixties. My grandmother pointed up at the salamis that were hanging with a big sign. The sign is still there. Some of the salamis are not. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . for health code reasons, but the. . . it says, you know, send your boy a, a salami. And it's from World War II where people could send dry-aged beef salamis to their kids overseas. And my father and his brother both served in the Second World War and both received salamis from Katz’s. We, we know that my grandmother and grandfather ate there. Their parents were horrifically poor and impoverished and lived with two or three other families in a three-room apartment further down the street in abject poverty. And I, I'd like to think that just like with, with Russ & Daughters, which I'll get to in a minute, that with, with money saved or an extra quarter or 50 cents that was a holiday bonus or some, at some point they might have gone in there and it's actually five generations, but for sure four. . .

SM:

Wow.

AZ:

. . . because I've eaten with four in there, my grandmother, my father, myself and my child to have the same meal and to share literally the exact same food I think is, is a privilege. The only way that my son can access his great-grandmother is by eating the same sandwich that she ate in the same place, maybe in the same seat. And. . .

SM:

I love it.

AZ:

. . . one of the great joys of, of my life was when a picture, you know, of me eating a sandwich went up on their wall. . .

SM:

Oh.

AZ:

. . .15, 20 years ago. And, you know, I can, I get pictures from people posting on Twitter, like, I'm eating my sandwich and I look up and there's. . . I’m at, quote, unquote, your table where your picture is. And, I think, I like that idea. I mean I like it. I'm not gonna lie. It's nice.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

If it wasn't there, it wouldn't change my life. But I believe that my grandmother looks down and just shakes her head and is like. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . .what the heck is going on, on planet Earth? I mean they're putting pictures of my schmuck grandchild up on the, up on the wall.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

Russ & Daughters, Russ & Daughters was an even more magical place because even as, as an appetizing shop, I mean I think they have the best, you know, salmon, chop liver, pickled herring, fresh herring, I mean you name it, it's an appetizing shop and, and it is primarily focused on, on fish and smoked fish. But they have baked goods and a lot of fantastic goodies. They're chocolate Babkas, you know, I think defines the, the word and it's exquisite food. But even back in its day, it was a, it was a place that was a special occasion smoked salmon, you know. That was special occasion cream cheese, that was special occasion cookies and Babka. Because it was the, the best for it. And, you know, the current generation that, that runs the shop are, are just a little younger than me and Niki Russ Federman and, and her cousin Josh run the shop and I, you know, I'm friendly with them. My grandmother was friendly with their grandfather.

SM:

Wow.

AZ:

My cousins have a picture of my grandmother standing at the counter in Katz. . . in Russ & Daughters. And so, we feel, you know, Niki and Josh and, and, and I, we, we feel that there’s. . . and they have this bonding with a couple dozen other families. But it, it's like a known thing that generationally we intersected there. That, you know, their grandfather took my grandmother's hand in his and wished her a Gut Yom Tov at the holidays. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . when she went shopping down there. Cuz she would have to get in the subway and go downtown because she lived on, on the Upper West Side at that point. And by the way, you had a whole slew of appetite in great places. Barney Greengrass was three blocks away from. . .

SM:

Yeah, gosh, I love Barney Greengrass.

AZ:

. . . my grandmother's house. Me too. But my grandmother was brand loyal to a fault. And I'm brand loyal to a fault be. . . because, you know, Niki and Josh in a sense are extended family. During COVID, we celebrated one of the Hanukah nights online. They, every night, they did a, a different person would zoom in and light the candles and say a prayer.

SM:

Oh.

AZ:

You know, and hundreds if not thousands of people would go online. Cause it was Russ & Daughters every, every night. And Niki would orchestrate the whole thing. And it was incredible. And so, to have links, to have links like that with other people in a restaurant, you know, it's one thing I, I'm sure I didn't come up with it. I'm sure other people say it too, but if you wanna be treated like a regular somewhere, be a regular, right?

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

I mean don't walk in there, you know, once a year for three years and then be irritated that somebody didn't buy you a drink. Right? I mean, it’s, it’s a, you know, you wanna be a regular, be a regular. And I'm so comfortable in that place. I, I feel great when I'm in there. Not just because it's of the quality of the food, but because of the people that are there. I just, I just adore them and they have that same generosity of spirit and service and hospitality because it's been, it’s been taught the right way in past every generation and they, they teach it to their employees and it's a, it’s a beautiful thing. And I think when I sent you my notes on this, I, I  said something to the effect of, you know, shockingly ironically that this, this food of my people that's born of struggle, I mean you had to cure fish. You know, the, we. . . . Jews cured fish a certain way because having been persecuted, we got crappy fish and we turned it into magic and, and could preserve it.

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

So, this food, born of struggle is now ironically the food of privilege. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . because while there is, there is some lox and, and nova in the counter there that's less expensive. Some of the stuff that, you know, there’s Scottish smoked salmon with wild fish when they, when they have it in, is, is as expensive as Wagyu, you know.

SM:

Oh yeah.

AZ:

And it’s, it’s amazing to me. I mean that's a whole other issue about, you know, climate crisis and overfishing. And, you know, I'm off tomorrow to a big conference in California on it, so I've got it on my mind. But, you know, to leave it there, it's a, it's so ironic that this food, that was the regular stuff of a breakfast growing up in New York for me. My father did, did well. He was one of a handful of people that ran a big advertising agency. So, you know, Russ & Daughters smoked fish bagels and cream cheese was in our refrigerator my whole life growing up, you know, because every week someone would go down and grab it. It was, it was yet to be the stuff of privilege. I'm not gonna lie, every other month I order a big box and have it sent out here.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

Cause in Minnesota, we don't have bagels and smoke fish that rises to that level of awesomeness. But yeah, it's a beautiful place where I learned a lot of lessons.

SM:

Oh. Well, we’re gonna go onto another one now, which I know as well. Casa Botin, which is a restaurant, I think perhaps the oldest restaurant in the world. From Madrid.

AZ:

Yup.

SM:

And Madrid, I have to say, is probably my favorite destination in the world. And I’ve, you know, not as many as you, but I've been to many. A hundred countries or something. And it is my favorite country, my favorite city in the world. Everything about it is great. And Casa Botin is one of these. When I went 20 years ago, was special. Probably less special now cuz I've been to many places. But I, I'd love to know your thoughts on that because I know this place, I know what it's like. I know, you know, I know Katz and Russ & Daughters, but not as well as you. But I know this place so I'd love to know what you think about it.

AZ:

Well, it, it was one of those places that changed my life. I mean, I went there with my father. You know, I was 15 or 16 years old. You know, we flew in, we got to the hotel, you know, he made me stay up. You know, he tried to teach me the lesson, like, just get on the clock of wherever you are. . .

SM:

Yes.

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . which I still do to this day. And we went out and had some, you know, tapas and something simple around the corner from the hotel and went to bed. And the next, the next day we went immediately to Botin for lunch. And I mean we saw some, you know, I'm sure we did, you know, went to the Prado during the morning, and you know. . .

SM:

Yup.

AZ:

. . . and then went to Botin for lunch. It is the, I believe it's still the oldest continuously operating restaurant in the world. And it serves a, a certain type of traditional Madrileno cuisine. And while there are other items on the menu and I've eaten them, I've had the pheasant, I've had the partridge when it's in season, the red legged partridge of Astoria. . .

SM:

Yep. Beautiful.

AZ:

. . . that when it comes into season, you know, I'm not sure there's a better place to have the, you know, Astorian red legged partridge cuz they roast it in that oven. Although, like you, I, I love Madrid and I've gone back over and over and there are so many chefs in that city that have taken that food of their grandparents and, you know, just morphed it into something else. So, I mean, I love dining in that city. And it's not the only place that you can get a baby suckling pig or baby lamb. But this is roasted in that Castilian style in a giant wood burning oven that they say. And I believe once when I was 16, I think I was a little cynical. But now that I know how cooking works, they can't let the fire go out because if they do, the oven gets cold and then they simply can't start prepping and cooking the next day. And they have these giant iron strap pans that go in there to the oven that where they roast all the potatoes and pull them out and keep them warm. So, they have potatoes for the lunch hour to put two on every plate.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

You know, it's that typical place where there's a giant piece of, well the whole animal is served to your table and it's about the size of a football. It's very young and it's been on its mother's milk for a week and then it's roasted in their oven. But on your plate is like one half a carrot and two potatoes.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

And I mean there's something about that that I just adore.

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

And then the waiter will help you unless you've grown up in a house like I did where my father insisted on breaking down the animal for the two of us. Cuz he wanted to make sure I ate the little cheek and ate the, the rib meat and the back strap and the tail and, and ate the foot. And his whole thinking, I'm 15, 16 years old at the time, but obviously I knew where my dad was going with this. He's like, You can't appreciate the meat of, of the, of the rib or you know, you can't appreciate the meat of the neck unless you eat the fatty meat of the ankles. . .

SM:

Oh. Yeah.

AZ:

. . . and knees and you should eat it all because they tucked the knees and legs underneath. So, they would caramelize on the little platters that came in. I was just, it blew my mind. But. . . And I think I mentioned this in the, in the notes that I sent you. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . you can’t. . . . The last time I was in Madrid, all the Angulas were like those fake crab sticks.

SM:

Oh yeah, yeah.

AZ:

They can't, they can’t find them anymore. I wouldn't eat them unless, I mean they're an endangered species.

SM:

Yes, they are.

AZ:

I think would, I think. I think my last Angulas went over the, the bow of my, my boat long ago. But in the days when they were more plentiful, these tiny little elvers would swim from the Sargasso Sea up to grow larger in the rivers and estuaries of coastal Spain. And they would take a clay dish and get it to 600 degrees in these wood burning ovens, bring it to your table, pour a few tablespoons of olive oil in, some sliced garlic, one dried chili and a handful of Angulas. And they would hand you that wooden fork and you'd stirred around, and these, these, you know, they were like the size of, they looked like toothpicks. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . and you swirl them around with their fork and they would cook and you'd get two or three bites and they were the, just the most delicious seafood. The flavor of them was unmatched. And, you know, today it's like, you know, and I know a bad restaurant when they tell you we, we're, we're gonna heat up a rock and you're gonna cook your own meat on a rock. It was like, I don't wanna cook my own meat on a rock. I want you to cook it better, you know, than the rock cooks it in the kitchen, you know. I mean, don’t, don't do that just to. . . . So other people are like, Oh, what are they having? Are they cooking meat on a rock? I mean, I don't get it. But, this, this act of stirring it yourself involving the patron in the cooking the food, you were so psyched for that first bite as you were cooking it yourself. And then after the Angulas were done, you know, up would come this piece of meat to share or to eat on your own. And it is, you know, the, the little pigs came from Segovia. You know, they were all, they cooked over there. I mean obviously I went back and did two, I mean Botin was in two episodes of TV that I shot. Because you can't go to Madrid and not, I mean it was in the first Madrid episode of Bizarre Foods, which was the very first show we ever shot. It was the second one aired, but it was the first one we shot. And then we went back again for Delicious Destinations. And it's all on old Spanish oak. And, you know, because the fires have never gone out, there is still the essence of the same fire that cooked a pig or a lamb for, you know, Goya or President Truman or Charles Dickens. And they ate food from the same oven and the coals have never gone out. And I am literally touching, I mean you talk about three degrees of Kevin Bacon, that's one degree of Ernest Hemingway.

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

And I know that's a romantic idea, but it is the truth. I mean there it is the truth and microscopically little bits of ash that, that cooked Hemingway’s, you know, pig are on my pig. And that's as close as I can get to that. And I, you know, I wrote something in, I think in my first book that food is good. Food with a story is better. Food with a story that you haven't heard of before is better than that. And food with a story that you haven't heard of but that you can relate to is the best of all. And I think I learned that lesson in that restaurant with my dad. I think it was also the first restaurant where my father let me drink wine with him at a table. My first regular drinking with him was skiing in Austria because you came down the mountain, I was 12, 13, 14 and my father was a single dad. And so, you know, after skiing, spring skiing, you took off your skis and you sat at the bar and he wanted to have, it was hot up on the mountain, but you get down, you're in the shade, the sun is setting, all of a sudden it's 40 degrees again. So, you're kind of chilly. And they would serve Gluehwein at, or beer at these outdoor bars. And my dad, there was no nanny or anything like take the kid back to the hotel. So, I'm just looking at him and, you know, by the way, they're also handing you little bits of sausage and cheese to, you know, snack on. And I'm sitting there looking at him, like, Well, are. . . make a decision, are you gonna have a glass of, you know, sparkling water or do I get to share the Gluehwein with you and my dad? Let me share the Gluehwein. Now, you know, that. . . was that. . . back then was the, were the seeds then sewn of my alcoholic destruction. Absolutely not. The. . . those had already been sewn. I already had all the problems baked into me before I picked up the first drinker drug. But I will never forget what that tasted like with my father. Or, then when we got to Botin a year and a half later and my dad was a, was a gourmand, he would be called today. He lived to eat and ate to live and traveled to eat and ate to travel. And he was friends with James Beard and John Clancy and Alfredo Viazzi. . .

SM:

Oh wow.

AZ:

. . . and Craig Claiborne and also the whole rest of the, the gay food Mafia in the West Village in the sixties and seventies. And so, the wine that he ordered when we were at Botin was a very, very expensive Spanish red wine back then. I mean today it would be off the charts. And I just looked at him again with that look like you're not gonna drink that all by yourself, are you?

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

And I think my father would have, you know, but I think that his, his idea of, you know, well I'll just have three glasses cuz the bottle has four. I'll give one to the kid. But I've never forgotten every moment of that meal, every moment of that first meal. And I returned many, many, many times and took friends there. And, it’s, I mean, look, you know the way that place sits on this little side street. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . with cobble stones going down to it. And if that restaurant doesn't flip your switch, I don't know if I wanna be friends with you. I mean, if someone said to me, Oh, I went to Botin. Eh.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

I'd be like, Well either, A, you were paying attention. I mean, because we both know because we're very opinionated. Between the two of us. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . we have more opinions than any two people I know. Is it the best restaurant in Madrid? Absolutely not.

SM:

No.

AZ:

It may not even be the best restaurant in its neighborhood. However, is it one of the most special places on earth? Yes. And I think if you can't see that, so some places you go for the food. Look, the beer at Cheers was [bleep]. It, you know, Sam would pour it out of a tap. But when Norm walked in and everyone said, Hey Norm, it's how a place makes you feel, right?

SM:

Yeah. Yes it does.

AZ:

And when you sit down at Botin, if you don't connect to that feeling and those old chairs and star, I mean starched linen, I think those linens could cut the pigs.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

They're so starched.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

I don't want, If you don't like Botin, I'm not sure I wanna be friends with you. I mean, if you don't see it, then, then, then whoever that person is, and I are on two different planes and, you know, I love you, but I may not be able to hang out with you.

SM:

Well, I'm, I’m definitely on your side because I just adore it. And the. . . like you said, the pigs from Segovia, everything about it is just perfect. So, I'm definitely on your side.

AZ:

Let me, let me ask you a quick question.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

Cause I know, I know we have a couple more to get through, but you know, don’t you find it fascinating. Cause I'm sure you have your list too, of restaurants you return to again and again and they're not even the best restaurant in their own neighborhood these days. But you go there because it's a part of your life and a part of, of who you are that you get to reclaim when you're sitting there. I think it's true. Or am I alone or am I an idiot?

SM:

No, you’re, you’re absolutely not. I'll give you a perfect example. There's one in London called Tayyab’s, which is a great, well it started as a small little Pakistani café. . .

AZ:

Yep.

SM:

. . . grew now to 2000 seats. I still know the guy who runs it. As you talked to, you know, the people you knew at Russ & Daughters and everything about Tayyab’s is the lamb chops are perfect, the rest is fine. But it's still my number one restaurant when I go back to London, which has got, you know, many restaurants going on, all this new stuff going on. And I still go to Tayyab’s and it's down in Whitechapel and it is perfect.

AZ:

Yup, and I actually went there, oh gosh, this is probably going back 10 years. But I went there because you had told me about it, and I'm not sure whether you remember, but we were, I think we were judging an Iron Chef. . .

SM:

Yes, yes, I do.

AZ:

. . .competition. And you were talking about it and it just sounded like my kind of place. And I've been twice and you're absolutely, you're absolutely right. It’s the. . . . And I'm blanking on the name of it. There's an average Chinese restaurant that’s, that’s just outside of, of Piccadilly, and. . . but they do a pressed duck that, by the way, Chinese restaurants in America don't do, where they've essentially steamed the, the duck to the point where they can remove all the bones. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . and then they put it skin side down on a griddle and they press down on it. . .

SM:

Mmm.

AZ:

. . . and it just gets crispy, it’s like crispy confit duck, but a speedier way. And it's. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . served with scallions and hoisin sauce. It's like a quicker, cheaper way to enjoy Peking duck. And is it the best version in town? No, but it was the first place I ate it when I went over there 40 years ago, you know. Second time went with my dad when I was young. But when I went by myself, I discovered this place and I, I won't go eat it anywhere else.

SM:

[Laughter]

I wish I knew which it was because I probably. . .

AZ:

Yeah, but I have to, I'm gonna look, I'm literally, I just wrote down a note saying, look at the map because I wanna see, because I was in London this summer. . . . Yeah, I was in London this summer and unfortunately only got to eat at a couple of places that was on someone else's dime. I was . . . I flew over for the World's 50 Best. And, you know, I mean, the food was fantastic, so I didn't mind. But it almost kills me when I go to a city and I don't get to go to my five or six. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . favorite, favorite places. Anyway, onward. What's our next one?

SM:

Well, I, I always say when I come into New York, I also go to Dim Sum GoGo.

AZ:

Yep.

SM:

And the only thing I have is they do this chicken with four, 50 cloves of garlic or whatever it is. . .

AZ:

Yep.

SM:

. . . and they pour it on top and it's, it’s Oh. Okay.

AZ:

That's a great place. You should try. . . They have a crispy duck skin dumpling there. . .

SM:

Oooh.

AZ:

. . . that they've been doing for a long time. Next time you go, don't sleep on that one. That’s, that.

[Cross talk]

Dumpling Gogo, that's my, that’s my jam.

SM:

I’m definitely going to do that.

Okay, next we have another one. I mean, of these restaurants that we've both been to, but you've been probably more than I have. You went to Bocuse in Lyon, which. . .

AZ:

Yeah.

SM:

I just think of it as an old school, great place. When we went there, it was like going back into the seventies and sixties and nothing had changed, I don't think. And it was, it was perfect.

AZ:

Yeah. That’s, I mean, and that sums it up. The. . . the. . . what’s. . . . What's impressive to me is, you know, if you're a student of food history, you know, Bocuse bridged several generations. But when he came up as a young teenager, 13, 14, 15, 16, he was working in, in restaurants with the giants. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . of the culinary world. And in those days, the culinary world was perceived as starting in France.

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

And we know today that that is not the right way to look at food.

SM:

Mm-hmm.

AZ:

However, there is an element of respected history there that you also can't ignore just. . .

SM:

Mm-hmm.

AZ:

. . . because it was Eurocentric. And just because Euro-centrism we have now known, we have learned and become aware of is, is not the way to look at the food, our food planet, doesn't mean that that wasn't an important thing. . .

SM:

Yeah, I agree.

AZ:

. . . and so, you know, Bocuse was cooking food with sauces that came directly from the 18th and 19th century chefs who literally invented the system of sauce making that is still used today around the world.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

Right?

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

I mean, we luckily have, you know. . . You know, there are so many great, you know, chefs working around the world who will tell you that, you know, yes, I, I, I worked in European kitchens and learned how to make great French food, and then I realized I could cook the food of my native country, Peru, and once I started doing that, now I have the number three rated restaurant in the world. Right? I mean, we hear that story over and over, you know, whether it's African food, Japanese food, Thai food, you know, Filipino food, it, it doesn't matter. It, it's, you know, excellence is, excellence is excellence. But we had so many people who for generations thought everything had to go through learning the French style first and then. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . moving on. You know, learn the classic way. And there are so many classic dishes that are done there, and, and only there. I mean, his truffle soup, no one would dare.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

It's fascinating to me that Paul, Paul Prudhomme, Paul Prudhomme, popularizes Blackened Red Fish, and every restaurant in the world starts making it. I mean, at one point, I'm not sure if you were in America at the time, but I forget whether it was one of the big fast fooders took a run at doing a Blackened Fish sandwich like McDonald's or Burger King because. . .

SM:

Oh wow.

AZ:

. . . because Paul Prudhomme was such a, a, a huge force of nature in this country. And everywhere you went was serving Blackened Red Fish. No one would dare serve Bocuse’s truffle soup.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

I mean, I've never. . . I’ve yet to see it on another person's menu. The only time I've had other. . . someone else make it was at a tribute dinner to him, right. . .

SM:

Wow.

AZ:

. . . which is appropriate.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

And the person cooking it was connected to him. But that was the first, you know, three-star Michelin experience that I, I ever had. And we were skiing, we couldn't eat in this town. The, the whole town shut down. We were eating sardines and crackers on day 10 in the lobby of this majestic hotel in Val d'Isère.And then my father rented a van and drove eight of us all day to Lyon and literally dropped our suitcase at this hotel we were gonna be in overnight. And I don't know how he scored a table of eight in a day, but he did probably through his friend Jacques Lang, who was, who ran the advertising agency in Paris that my father had started with a bunch of people back in New York. And, you know, I had never seen an a la carte menu and two different tasting menus on another page. I had never seen a restaurant with its own garden. And through the windows you could see people there. I never saw so many dishes served with tableside action by captains. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

AZ:

. . .who had no wasted, you know, motion. Everyone, every table had the, you know. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . the, the, the chicken steamed in the pigs bladder. I mean, it was incredible. And it was. . . you know, I had never seen. . . . Well, that's not true. I lied. I had seen it at lunch with my father. I would go to lunch with my dad and we'd go to Caravelle and we'd go to. . .

SM:

Mm-hmm.

AZ:

. . . La Côte Basque and all these midtown French restaurants where my dad liked to eat. And I, you know, I remember Jean-Jacques Rachou coming out into the dining room to greet, you know, a Getty or something like that. But then they went quickly back in. Bo. . . . So, I saw a chef in the dining room, you know, André Soltner at Lutèce rarely walked into the dining room unless, you know, there was, you know, the King of Spain was there. But Bocuse did a lap in his restaurant at night, you know, and he was so physically, impressi. . . . He was just tall and broad shouldered. And he always wore, you know, the. . . an 18-inch chef's hat. And I mean, man, watching this guy, I was like, I want to do that. I mean, people. . .  It was like, I, I think I told you it was like Mick Jagger walked in, you know.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

So, I knew. . . . I knew as a kid I wanted a career in food. But that night sealed it for me. And I ordered the Tasting Menu much to my father's upset.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

And the. . . one of the courses was this tiny little. . . because things were. . . it was this mid-seventies, and a lot of French cooks were experimenting by doing children's portions designed by an interior decorator. They were going very small. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . and creating tasting menus that didn't overwhelm you, but, you know, one course was gonna be this, this giant whole chicken in the next course or the course before it would be this tiny little moose. . .

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

. . . on a spoon made from its liver. And so, I tasted this thing and I immediately was like, Well, I need another one of those. That was the best thing. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . at that time in my life I'd ever eaten. And the captains came over. I mean, no one asked for. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . I mean, can you imagine asking, Can I have that again? And Bocuse came out because he thought his captain was lying to him, that it was some kid. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . that was eating this. And he smiled. He, he. . . . I went back, another one appeared, and I knew right away, I mean that, that sealed the deal for me. I knew I wanted a life in food above all other things.

SM:

Even just the thoughts of us going there, ooh, gosh, two or three years ago. And, and it obviously he'd gone at this point, but it was still held on exactly the same. . . .

AZ:

Oh. It, it’s, you know, this is the thing about. . . . Like Botin, you know, it's, it. . . . the food is cooked exactly the same way with the same skill level.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

Because, I mean, they've still held onto their Michelin stars. It, you know, the Bocuse d’Or is named after him. The, the ownership of that restaurant, makes sure that the finest cooks in the world are there. But they are. . . these are people who are doing classic French cuisine. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . the way it was, you know, for generations and generations. And if you love food, I think it's one of those places you gotta check off your, your, your box because it is unique and. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . it is becoming more unique with every passing day.

SM:

And talking about the ones that maybe aren't unique, but what, what they do is possibly u, unique. I mean, Trattoria Sostanza to me. . .

AZ:

Yep.

SM:

. . . I, now, I haven't been to the last one, which was [inaudible] but Trattoria Sostanza I liked when I went to Florence and I didn't have the best time there. And, I’m so. . . This is just me sharing it here. But I. . . . So, I wanted to know how that, you know, came to you as a like the place that you had mentioned, because I went to other places in, in Florence that was great, and. . . but past Sostanza. So, I'm just interested.

AZ:

If you said to me, if we were going for a weekend and you said, Let's go to the five best trattorias in town.

SM:

Mm-hmm.

AZ:

Let's just do five great trattorias. I'm not sure Sostanza makes that list.

SM:

Okay.

AZ:

I, I'm, matter of fact, I mean, I'm just ticking off some places in, in the back of my head. I mean, if it was just five it wouldn't. But I would convince you to go there with me because I needed to have that itch scratched. My father went there with my mother on their honeymoon. My dad took me the two or three times I was in Florence. When I went the summer in between high school and college, I went with one of my friends who's now a movie producer in LA. And the two of us went and ate there. And on subsequent trips to Italy, whenever I was in Florence, I never have not eaten at Sostanza. Now, it has changed because laws have changed. You can no longer just cook everything over a fire in the back of a restaurant without a real hood. I mean, you know, it’s, the. . . . I, I don't know how they got away with certain things. The, the, the, the tables. . . . It used to be you had a string of deuces along the wall and then there were two big tables running down the middle of the restaurant where just, you know, four sixes, twos, ones, you know, these. . .  20 people could sit at this table and that's, that’s where you sat. But my father went in and ordered everything for us. We, we, we started with crostini di fegatini, the calves liver. . .

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

. . . chicken liver, calves liver. Just put every liver into this pot, crostini, which I had never seen before, where wine, vegetables and livers were chopped up and thrown into a pot that never left the stove. They just let it die with the fire at night and then cranked it up again in the morning.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

So, everything just broke down into something, the texture of Bolognese sauce. And they put that on stale bread and you knew it was the leftover sliced bread from someone else's basket the night before.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

I mean, it's just stuff you can't do anymore. If you didn't finish your wine, if there was, you know, two inches of wine in the bottom of the bottle, you could see the waiter walk it to the back and before you put the bottle in the rack, he would tip it over into the, the liver pot, right? And yet what came out of there on stale bread was still my favorite bite of food I've ever eaten in my life. Then we had a, a, a, a, a Puntarelle, some sort of very bitter salad. Then we had pasta al sugo, and then we had a. . . we shared a, a Bistecca Fiorentina in subsequent trips. It's where I fell in love with pigeon. They had the best pigeon. I mean you could see them hanging, you know, some of them still in feathers out the back of the kitchen where the temperature was cooler. I mean, you know, you just can't do that anymore. And you would be sitting there. . . . You know, we talked about the egalitarian sense of restaurant, restaurants earlier. Sostanza was in the old leather district, right by the old railway station. And so, there were working men, I mean, with, with grease on their overalls, right? I mean. . .

SM:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

AZ:

. . . working class people. Cause we'd go for lunch, dinner, whatever, sitting right next to couples in, in formal wear that were going to the opera that night. And they were just eating different things and they were right next to each other and they were passing bread and talking. And just, it was, it, it, it was just Italy in a microcosm to me. And, you know, the staff, they all took their pictures of the staff all over the restaurant. And my father took me over to a picture and said all these people were here when I was here with your mother. And then he pointed at a maître d’ he said, That guy's now the maître d’ and that guy, and he points to him, he is like some young cook kneeling in the front, know how to, That guy is the chef now.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

And I was just like, Oh my gosh, these people have all worked together forever. The, the, the staff was like a family and, and there was a level of, sort of, obvious professionalism and a family attitude where, this is what I do for a living. We're all gonna run this restaurant for our lives together. No one's getting fired. You know, and it's like a, it’s like a, it’s like a football team. Like, you all have to work together to get off the play every time the ball is hiked. And I, I just, you know, try to. . . Sostanza to me was. . . and maybe it's the Sostanza of my dreams that I fell in love with. Maybe it's the romantic nature of it all. But yeah, it's, it’s, it’s on my list. It changed me. It, it really changed me.

SM:

I. . . yeah. So that's part of it why I, I didn't get it cuz I just turned up and I went there and I, you know, didn't get that. Whereas you got all of that because your father had been and as you did in Katz’s, as you did in Botin, as you did. . . .

AZ:

You know, Sostanza is different though. I don't even know if they cook over wood anymore there because when they rehabbed the kitchen, I mean it's still open. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . but it's, it’s different and you, you can't hang, you know, 20 pigeons.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

You know, they would get wild pigeon from someone would shoot them in season, bring them to the, to the restaurant and they would hang them in the open doorway by the back going to the alley where it was cool enough in the wintertime cuz we would always eat there in March after skiing, it was still cool. It was sort of the perfect weather to hang the birds and, you know, for two or three days and let them age in feathers. I don't think you can do that in a restaurant even in Italy anymore, you know.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

So. . . and, and, and not over open fire and not where one guy is cooking everything and, you know, the restaurant has changed. I mean the menu in essence hasn’t. But yeah, it's a, it’s a big one for me.

SM:

Oh, okay. Well, I'm definitely, then, you know. . . . I'm gonna go there next time I go to Florence. I'm gonna go with your eyes as it were and see what it's like.

The next one, I haven't been to, so we’re gonna. . . . This is a total change now and it’s, it is our last one, but I did write about it because I wrote about the history of sushi and how it came over to America. . .

AZ:

Yep.

SM:

. . . and all of that. And Hatsuhana just to hold the kind of, I wish I'd been there, shall we say? And you've been there.

AZ:

Yeah.

SM:

So, I, I want to. . . I'd love to hear what it was like going there because this was how sushi really came to the US or certainly came to New York.

AZ:

Yeah. We’ve, we’ve never. . . There aren't meant. . . . Look, I would love to go back to the seventies in New York and take a whole bunch of people to Hatsuhana, but sitting there listening to you tee this up, I'm like, I wish I could take you there when we were both teenagers with my dad because you would've, you would’ve just, you would’ve had to physically uncurl your toes.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

These days for people who love Japanese food, the idea of walking into a place and seeing, you know, Japanese characters on, on flags in a dining room, all of that white maple, the sort of the hush tone, that smell of vinegar and fish. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . that, that only a good sushi bar sort of has. The, the lineup of chefs behind the, you know, the, all the [inaudible] standing behind the, the line working diligently. One man looking up and nodding at you because he's allowed to cuz he's the, the, the sushi master. . .

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

. . . that was all brand new. I mean no one had seen that before. You know, there's a hundred-year-old sushi restaurant, 107 hundred-eight-year-old sushi restaurant in Seattle that we've profiled in a couple of my shows. So, obviously sushi was something that Americans had the opportunity to try. A Nippon restaurant opened in the sixties, right, and. . .

SM:

Yeah, yeah.

AZ:

. . . served traditional toh, Tokyo style sushi and they also introduced, you know, certain types of noodles, hand cut and other things at Nippon as well. A few years later in the sixties, Rocky Aoki opened Benihana. So, you had that whole. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . teppanyaki style thing going on. . .

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

. . . and Hatsuhana was not, not the first restaurant to serve sushi in New York, but it was the first high end fancy pants, you know. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . you want everyone at the time . . . I mean it was like $30 for the set lunch and $45 for the set dinner. I mean it was like, what?

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

You know, I mean, like, that was a radical. . . . That, that, that's like two $300 today. . .

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

. . . and it was a radical idea. And my father, his office was at 777 Third Avenue and he could walk there in about 12, 14 minutes and I would meet him for lunch there once a month. And, you know. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . he went and immediately invited me. And I had never eaten like that before. I mean, they, they were the first place I ever saw where a chef had a knife and a cucumber and holding his hand, was able to make a sheet of paper out of it and then roll eel in it with no rice.

SM:

My gosh.

AZ:

I had never had a giant clam Geoduck before. I'd never had Chawanmushi, a custard that now everyone wants to, to make. I never had, you know, I have had certain types of Japanese food with, with my, my best friend. His father was Japanese, but this was unique and very special and, you know, I could go, I could go on and on about it, but they were the first place that was flying in seafood from Tsukiji market. They were, they were the first to do so many things and in that elegant, hushed environment, I mean, I looked at my dad and I was like, Are we allowed to like laugh and have a good time? He was like, Yeah, absolutely, but you should really focus on. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . on this. It was also the first place that someone came over and poured soy sauce. Nowadays it would be brushed onto the fish before it gets set. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . in front of you so that you don't over dunk and only with fish that gets soy sauce with it. But the server all in very traditional garb, you know, would tip a little bit of soy sauce into my little dish. And, you know, several years later after I'd started eating sushi everywhere with my dad and we loved it and with other friends and it became like a thing and I would go back there, you know. . . . At Hatsuhana, the reason they gave you three dribbles into your thing was like, no, you're not gonna drown it out.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

Right? And it was also back then the first sushi bar that sort of, with nonverbal instructions, they put a little cloth, wet cloth next to you that was folded with a little piece of it standing up. So, it was shaped, it was flat with a little starched piece. . .

SM:

Okay.

AZ:

. . . of cloth that had warm water and they invited you to pick. . . . Anything with rice, you ate with your hands.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

Sashimi you ate with your chopsticks and you would wipe your fingers on that little towel, that the tiny little cloth. . . .

SM:

Yeah. Yeah.

AZ:

. . . that they gave you. And there was something about that, you know, people. . . . You know, I've had people say, Oh, you’re just a sushi snob. And I'm like, well, it's just how I learned. You know, I don't want to yuck on your yum. You eat. . . you wanna use chopsticks for your, you know, tekamaki roll. Like go ahead. But there was something about touching your food by that point. I was cooking with my dad a lot. There was something about that invitation to touch it that and then place it in your mouth that connected you to it. It was, it was fantastic. And I, I, I didn't mention this in the little notes that I sent you, but. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . after a while, you know, you wanna be treated like a regular, become a regular. We would sit sometimes we'd just show up for lunch and they were all apologetic. They didn't have a table for my dad who really was a regular there. And we would sit the sushi bar that had six or eight seats and I fell in love with sitting at the sushi bar because. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

AZ:

. . . if you were, if you were enjoying everything enough it seemed, magically something you didn't order would make its way over. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . the bar onto your, onto your plate. And I was. . . . It was the first place I tried Japanese Horse Mackerel, Shima Aji. And I just had never had anything so rich in my life in that they sliced the top loin sashimi, the, the bottom loin was taken carefully off the ribs. This is a very small fish, 10 inches long. And they'd mince that belly meat into a little tartar and they would fry the frame and serve the two things against it so you could eat the tail like a potato chip.

SM:

Oh.

AZ:

And it was like a whole ritual on one fish. And nobody back then had ever said, uttered the words nose to tail eating. And this was 1976, 7, 8, 9, my high school years. And. . . . But looking back at it, that was probably the first time anybody had put sign in front of me other than that pig or lamb at Botin. But back then at Botin, they didn't say, like, try everything nose to tail. They just let you choose your adventure. At Hatsuhana, they were like. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . they indicated with their hand the order in which eat the tartar, then the sashimi, then the tail and the head. And, you know, I don't wanna make a connection that maybe isn't there and is perhaps too fine a thread to tie together. But, you know, I'm gonna just say between the Angulas at Botin and the pigs feet at Botin and the Chawanmushi and the, and the fish head at Hatsuhana. And, you know, as a young kid at, at Russ & Daughters, they would take the wings off the bottom belly, the. . .

SM:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

AZ:

. . . the little tiny fins on the bottom of the belly of the salmon. And my grandmother would get six or seven of them and she'd serve them with scrambled eggs in the morning, cooked the next morning after we had gone shopping there for me. Eating those things is that, it's not why I made Bizarre Foods, but it certainly made me the kind of eater where I was like, Oh yeah, I'll try that.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

Because I had so many experiences with other things that other people wouldn't necessarily consider ordinary.

SM:

Well, you could see back here is a, a fish that Morimoto drew. . .

AZ:

I have the same one.

SM:

. . . when he was serving. . . . Oh, you have it. Oh, so that must have been when you were doing it.

AZ:

That is correct.

SM:

And I was, and I was judging it and. . .

AZ:

Correct.

SM:

. . . that piece that he has here. And I said, go and sign this and, you know, put what they all are. And that's where I signed it as well. That's fantastic. Not that anyone at home could watch this with this spot.

AZ:

Oh, you can. You can go onto Discovery Plus and you can watch the original Iron Chef and you can look up Battle Whistling Salmon. And what Morimoto did, and it blew my mind, was he took like the ballast and fried it. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . and he made a little yakitori out of the cheek. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . and he made little chips outta the tail. He painted that. . .

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

. . . and put it between two pieces of glass and then served the different elements on top of it. And to this day, remains one of the great sort of like food moments. I know why you had him sign it because the dish was that good.

SM:

It was. And that's why I kept it there. So, I actually keep it behind me when I do this. Andrew, what a fantastic description of all those restaurants. It was really amazing. But before we go. . .

AZ:

Yep.

SM:

. . . and I have, I mean, some hopefully some fun questions for you, would you be willing. . .

AZ:

Of course.

SM:

. . . to answer them?

[Laughter]

AZ:

Of course. Anything for my friend.

SM:

Oh, well thank you so much.

Okay, so if Andrew Zimmern was a meal, and this is a real, cuz you've gotta go again all over the world, what would it be?

AZ:

I think I'd be, and there's several versions of them, I think I'd be a matanza. I mean they're done in Spain. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . they're done in Central and South America. And essentially a hog is slaughtered. They, they take the blood and make blood sausage. I mean, every bit of that animal is cooked and different family members or different families will take pieces and make them and everyone eats it all together. Now there's many types of meals like that. I've seen it done in the South Pacific with giant tunas.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

I've seen it done in parts of Indonesia with all kinds of different animals. It is, it is essentially that sort of grand, you know, in France with a whole fish, they'll do a grande. All the. . .

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

I would be a matanza. A little bit of everything. All cooked.

SM:

Ah.

AZ:

All eaten at the same time.

SM:

That is perfect. I love that. That’s. . . Yes. One of my favorite answers. If you could go to any meal during history or a, you know, particular point in history. . .

AZ:

Yep.

SM:

. . . which I love to ask because it shows where people's kind of lifestyle takes them and what kind of place, where would you be? Hmm.

AZ:

16th century England.

SM:

Ooh.

AZ:

Did you, did you ever see the Robin Hood movie with Errol Flynn?

SM:

I did. Oh yeah, many. Yeah. Gosh.

AZ:

So, there's a scene, one of the big deals is that the Sheriff of Nottingham convinces, you know, the, the, the bad king. He's like the. . . no one can shoot the king's deer anymore. And. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . you know, cut to, you know, 20 minutes later in the movie, there is a giant festive scene that I know historically is not accurate.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

Nothing looked that good back then, but it was hundreds. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . of tables with piles of fruit and piles of roasted pheasant. And it's a food scene in a movie that lasts like 30 seconds. And I, I remember my eyes just like bugging out because. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . now there's so many great movies with so many great food scenes, right? But you know, it's, you know, all kinds of birds are being roasted on spits and people are eating them. And there's fruit and goblets of wine. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . and huge, huge platters of fish. And I mean, it's, it’s, it’s definitely not the way people were eating in 1570. I mean, you know, I can guarantee you that.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

However, in the movie, that, that room, that meal, those candles that everything and Errol Flynn walks in with a deer that he had shot, so has the arrow in it and he throws it on that table and then there's like a fight ensues as he runs out the door and all the rest of that kind of stuff. But I have never forgotten that. That is the, I, I wanna go there. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . and I, I always carry a pocket knife, right, and, you know, everyone there had a little knife, and they’re eating with their fingers. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . and the. . . it wasn't historically accurate. There were some dining utensils that the. . . in use there. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . in the movie that didn't exist at the time.

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

But one thing they got right was everyone had their dagger and they were cutting meat and, you know, lambs on spit. Every animal imaginable was being cooked in that room. And I, you know, I just sat there and I looked at it and, you know, I've never forgotten that since I first saw the movie. So, there's your answer. I wanna be in that room eating that meal and Robin Hood as that needs to come in and throw the deer on. And as I'm eating lamb chops and everyone's running and they're like, Aren't you gonna go chase him? And I'm like, No, I'm finishing the lamb. What are you outta your mind?

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

This lamb is great.

SM:

Yeah, well you are Andrew Zimmern, so you get to choose somewhere that's not from history. So that's fine.

AZ:

Well, it is history. It isn't history.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

But it's a food moment that, you know, I, I mean, look, we have all these. . . . You know, we're all binging shows and whether it's Vikings or the. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . Robin Hood or all these movie, Game of Thrones, you know, whatever. When you go back and then there are these big sort of like feast days and feast moments. Those are the things that really, really get me going. And, you know, I chose one that's representative of it that I think people might know. I do not want to be at the Red Wedding in Game of Thrones cuz everyone's killed.

SM:

[Laughter]

Well, the, there's one on the House of Dragons, which I'm not watching, but my wife is, and the only thing I'm interested in is where they stop for the food and they eat some, the king eats something. So, I totally agree with that.

AZ:

Yeah. Yeah.

SM:

Now, and this is, this is an interesting one. So, if you could choose any great invention in history, no kind of mention of, you know, fire and all of that. . .

AZ:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . nonsense because. . . . What would you, what would you choose?

AZ:

Food related?

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

Any great food related invention in history.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

I am, I am going to go with the. . . . Okay, I'm gonna describe it. I don't know what the name is, but everyone will know. Everyone will know what it is. So, if you're roasting a whole animal. . .

SM:

Mm-hmm.

AZ:

. . . right, in a pit, right?

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

Not asador style where it’s on. . .

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

. . . an Argentine cross, but let's say a whole pig in the deep south.

SM:

Yep.

AZ:

You wanna start that pig skin side down for a certain while. . .

SM:

Yes.

AZ:

. . . over a certain heat, then flip it and then flip it back and hold shovels of coal underneath it to blister the skin and get it all crispy. . .

SM:

Mm-hmm.

AZ:

. . . the great hog, barbecue masters all kind of have a version of that.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

So, there's a thing that, you know, you unlock a pin. The, the, the animal is in between two grates. But one person needs to be able to turn the animal because you, you're doing this in the middle of the night. . .

SM:

Yeah.

AZ:

. . . having a beer or something stronger. And I saw this at someone's house in the. . . in Alabama 15 years ago making television, and it blew my mind. And essentially what it is, is that if you put the pins in through the metal edging of the pit, the animal is locked in place. It doesn't move. But you move those things, you can spin it and turn it over and lock it back into place.

SM:

Oh.

AZ:

I looked at them and I was like, my gosh, I've seen that before. And I realized I'd seen a much smaller version in Malaysia on the streets of Penang, where they would cook a hundred different chicken wings.

SM:

Yeah. Yeah.

AZ:

Glaze. . . glazing them. And then they would turn it and spin it and lock it into place again. And I'm like, there's no way some cotter pin salesman, you know. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . was in Malaysia and then made it into the deep south. Like, these two things were invented out of necessity long ago by folks who were just tinkering around with little parts in the garage. But it's the most common-sense way to cook something. And I love that because number one, the results are immaculate, right? You can't get the quality of the product without doing it that way. But yet it's so simple and so humble. It's just a little piece of metal and drill a couple holes and be able to rotate your thing. And it's that, it’s, it’s that desire by human beings to take something that's good. I mean, look, the wings are great and you get a friend, you flip it over, you flip the hog. But it takes something from great to un [bleep] believable. And I love that kind of stuff.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

And I still am in awe that I still wanna make one back here. You can't buy em. I mean, you need to make one. And I’m. . . I, I think that's my, that’s my invention for what it represents, because it's the ingenuity of human beings that are like, Well, this is the best chicken wing in Penang, but we can make it better.

SM:

Ooh.

AZ:

And I love that. I love that.

SM:

Well, you've gotta be good to have the best chicken wing in Penang. So. . .

AZ:

Oh, on. . . On New Lane there. I mean, blow my mind.

SM:

Yeah, When we were there, and I've been there a couple of times and the. . . all of the food there is amazing. The, the roti, the, oh my Gah. . .

AZ:

That’s insane. All the sambals. There’s. . . .

SM:

Oh.

AZ:

I would encourage people, I, I tell folks all the time, that is a. . . . If you're looking for great street food and great restaurant food, why not go to Penang, Malaysia? I, I know that we. . .

SM:

So good.

AZ:

. . . we've probably created an episode that's way too long for everybody. But I, I, I will say one of the greatest swings and misses, one of the greatest strikeouts, one the greatest fails in the history of television and television executives in the most part. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

. . . uh, you know, they, they, they. . .

SM:

I’m saying nothing.

AZ:

. . . take more strikes. . . They take more strikes than hits. That's all I'm gonna say. I'm gonna leave it right there. They take more strikes than hits.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

But that somebody 15 years ago didn't say, Let's take that guy in the hat and the glasses and the bald Jewish kid and send them around the world and make 20 episodes of a buddy food show. Made a very, very, very big mistake.

SM:

Well, we could still do it.

AZ:

We can still do it. I'm sitting around, I'm sitting here talking to you and I'm like, That would be, that would be. . . . It would be, what's the show with the guys in the cars that's been on for 200 years on the, on BBC now is made. . .

SM:

Oh, Top Gear.

AZ:

Top Gear. You, me and someone else, we make the Top Gear of food and just go around and eat.

SM:

We can still do that.

AZ:

We can still do that. We can still do that.

SM:

Even though we're slightly older than we were.

AZ:

[Laughter]

We just know more. We just know more now.

SM:

Just before we finish and everyone kinda knows you, but just because Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and I believe now, cause I'm following you on TikTok.

AZ:

Yes, I'm doing all of it. Instagram is @ChefAZ, AndrewZimmern on Twitter, Facebook and TikTok. All things Andrew can go through AndrewZimmern.com. If people go there, there's no paywall stories, recipes, collections of everything. It's a. . . I’m very blessed. We've had some great people. We've won a lot of awards for our website. It's a great food website. And also, people can sign up for my Substack there.

SM:

Oh.

AZ:

And it is, my Substack is great. I mean, I think we're up to 40,000 visitors a day on it.

SM:

Wow.

AZ:

But we put new content, we put new content there, it's called Spilled Milk. We put new content there every weekday. But what's even more fun is if you go and subscribe, which is, I think, it's $50 a year or $7 a month, some kind of thing like that, which basically pays for, you know, God willing at some point, will pay for the staff that's helping me do this. But you get 30% off Shun knives. Shun is one of my sponsors.

SM:

Oh, okay.

AZ:

And what I love about it is 30% is real money. If you're buying a $300 knife and you get a hundred dollars off, subscribing to Spilled Milk is a savings plan.

SM:

[Laughter]

AZ:

So. . . . But it's a very nice thing that my sponsors did for new subscribers. So, get on over and check out AndrewZimmern.com. It all pops. My Badia spices are at the top. You can't miss. . . . Navigate around it and have fun. You'll find all things Andrew and all my connections to my social.

SM:

We'll make sure we check AndrewZimmern.com. I can't tell you, this has been a complete joy.

AZ:

Likewise.

SM:

Take care, my friend.

AZ:

Yeah, you too buddy. Bye-bye.

SM:

Bye bye.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Do make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www dot Eat My Globe dot com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

And, if you like what you hear, please don’t forget to subscribe, recommend us to your family and friends and give us a good rating on your favorite podcast provider. That really makes a difference.

Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE, a podcast about things you didn’t know you didn’t know about food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

[Pa pa pa pa pa sound]