Eat My Globe

Interview with Food Podcast Superstar & Food Anthropologist,

Debra Freeman

INTRO MUSIC

SIMON MAJUMDAR (“SM”):

Hi everybody. I am Simon Majumdar and welcome to a brand-new episode of Eat My Globe, a podcast that tells you everything that you didn't know you didn't know about food. And on today's very special episode, I am delighted to introduce you all to Debra Freeman. Now, Debra is a food anthropologist. A writer, like me. And, like me, a podcaster. She particularly looks at food that originates in Virginia, one of my favorite places in the US. But also looks at the greater South, in general. Like me, she's again, fascinated by the impact of race, culture, and food. And she talks about this on her own podcast, “Setting the Table.” So, I can't wait to introduce you all to the one and only, Debra Freeman.

DEBRA FREEMAN (“DF”):

[Laughter]

SM:

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Um, but with your respect and, and you have this real love for African American food, it's not surprising that you have a podcast, you have this fantastic writing career, and you really describe yourself as a food anthropologist, which is something I try to be, but I'm not really. Um, I just do this as a kind of hobby, really. This, although there's nearly 80 something plus episodes. So, I guess it's not too much of a hobby.

So, perhaps before we can look at your choices and, and for people listening, uh, we've asked you to, um, come back with, you know, five people, you know, or five in this case, uh, aspects of people, you know. Um, and so, before we do tell us a little bit about your podcast, what that covers, and about your writing career, which I have to say makes me very jealous, uh, cause you covered a lot of, a lot of them.

DF:

Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, I am the host of a podcast which is called, “Setting the Table,” and “Setting the Table,” it really, um, we just finished our first season probably a couple months ago. And really what I wanted to do through the podcast is make the argument that African Americans laid the foundation for American food, as we know it. And through each particular episode, you know, I talk about things that you might take for granted like barbecue or macaroni and cheese, or, you know, even certain desserts. Those all are connected to Black hands and to, you know, Black people in general. And so, um, that's really what I wanted to do. And so, I was really fortunate enough to have some really cool guests on to really walk me and the listeners through why this is an accurate assertion. Um, and so, and I also try to do that through my writing. And so, I've written for like a bunch of publications, but the through line between everything I write, whether it's, if it's about collard greens or spoonbread or yellow cake is really, how does that relate to the African American experience, and really trying to tell those stories in a holistic way.

SM:

Well, I, I think just from what I, you know, read and listening to your podcast, it's an amazing thing that you're doing because I think a lot of people, um, on the white background of things don't even realize that this is where the food comes from. And I think we're gonna talk about that. I think with our challenges today, um, particularly I think with the first one, but when you talk about a lot of the people, we'll, we'll let the people find out what we're gonna talk about as we go on. Um, but coming from an Indian background as well, you know, in England, you know, I look at Chicken Tikka Masala, I look at these things that come out of the British perspective and I try and tell that as well from the British perspective. So, it's a really interesting view. So, why, what we're going to do folks is we're going to go through the, uh, African American Foodways, I think. And we're gonna talk about those.

So, why don't we, why don't we just get down to the choices because you, you put some, uh, ones that I know and you put some that I didn't know, which was fascinating for me because my great passion is to go online or to go everywhere and just find out about them. And, and so, it was really, really passionate, but you came up, I think with the first one, uh, with a group of people, uh, which I thought was exciting, um, and really where ‘cue starts from, I think. And so, why don't you tell us, tell us who your first choices in the, in, in the kind of Eat My Globe experience are?

DF:

Yeah. So, number one in, you know, my first-round draft pick would 

be. . .

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

. . . would be pit masters and the early enslaved, uh, pit masters. And so, you know, two-fold, one, I make the argument that barbecue starts in Virginia. I have lots of documentations and arguments for that, but even more importantly than place, you know, the where, is the who. And so, it's those early African Americans who are digging the pits, who are raking the coals, who are tending to those hogs and other meats as well, but primarily hogs when it starts out in Virginia.

SM:

Yep.

DF:

Um, they are the ones doing that work. And so, they are laying the foundation for American barbecue because as African Americans are sold throughout the South, they're taking their techniques with them. And so, you're going to Alabama, you're going to Georgia, you're going South Carolina, but you're taking all of those traditions with you. And then later, in the Great Migration, even expands to St. Louis to Chicago, to Kansas City. So, all of these traditions come from Virginia Pitmasters. And, um, and so, I really think that people don't necessarily think about, where does this kind of come from, but it it's really a fascinating story. And so, you know, these men and some women, not very many women, it wasn't very well documented, unfortunately, but these men and women really do set the stage for something that people all around the world identify as American.

SM:

And what I, what I wanted to ask you about that, first of all, um, let's, let's just get the, the elephant out of the room and talk about Texas because. . .

DF:

Mmm.

SM:

. . . that comes as a very different style of barbecue. It's German.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

And I, I want to know whether it's related to barbecue as it was in Virginia, whether it operated as a separate kind of, I don't know, a separate kind of. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm

SM:

. . . enterprise itself, or whether it, I don't know where it came from or whether it came out of the Virginia barbecue.

DF:

Yeah. It definitely doesn't. And you are correct about the German influences and Eastern European influences. That's where Texas barbecue comes from, from those migrants coming over and using their smoking techniques. That is completely different than what's going on in Virginia with the slow cooking, you know, in indirect heat versus direct heat. So, that's definitely the difference. But those things are going on simultaneously after Texas has established much later, but you know, 150, 200 years prior is where Virginia is really saying the stage for barbecue. Because Texas barbecue is a whole different thing.

SM:

Oh yeah. It, it really is. And it's a totally, yeah, it is a totally different thing.

[Laughter]

DF:

[Laughter]

SM:

Uh, I'm a great fan. I'm a great fan of both.

DF:

Mm-hmm

SM:

I'm a huge fan. Uh, people may not know this, but I used to, uh, be on a barbecue team at the Kansas City Royal. So. . . .

DF:

Oooh.

SM:

Oh yeah. Yeah. People don't know this about me because I'm, you know, they see me on Iron Chef and all of this eating fine food, but, uh, barbecue is one of my great passions. I have a, a few questions. And since you mentioned one in your talk there, let's talk about, uh, the women's side. So. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

I think about barbecue even as an enslaved community, whether it was done on, on a day off, I don't even know if they had a day off, but whether it was separate. So, it was something the men did when they were and gave the women some time off. Or the fact is even then the, the, the men were cooking something that the women weren't, which I found very ex. . . you know, extraordinary.

DF:

Yeah. I mean, I think that is interesting because cooking obviously was known as domestic work, but this was something almost a little different, you know, because I think the mere. . . the strength that takes to flip a, you know, 80-pound hog. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

. . . or to chop down the tree to get to the coals, to burn it, it's really labor intensive. Uh, you know, I can't even imagine what must have been like without modern equipment modern tools. . .

SM:

Yep.

DF:

. . . to be able, able to do that. Um, but there was one woman in particular, her name was Mandy. She was actually married to Juba Garth, uh, who was an enslaved man here in Virginia. And they were a husband and wife kind of cooking team, if you will. And so, she's the only one that we have uncovered and found. I'm sure there were others, but it was, it was very rare. But yeah, typically this was, this was a men's activity. Um, I'm sure, but again, I'm sure there were women, but we just haven't found documentation for it.

SM:

Well, that's, I mean, interesting. And what's interesting now is there are, you know, a great number of women in barbecue now. So, Diva BBQ is a good friend of mine. Uh, you've got, uh, a lot of people around. So, what I love is that women are really getting into barbecue now. Um, and I think that's really important.

The other question, I, uh, well, I have a few questions, but so, someone, and this is somebody in, uh, Senegal. When I was there in Senegal, someone told me, uh, which is, uh, but the, uh, barbecue came from African Americans or in, in, uh, the US and also Caribbean Americans or Caribbeans coming into the US. And be the Caribbean Barbacoa and all of that stage as well, coming in. And I, I just don't know enough about it. But I wonder if you'd found out anything about that.

DF:

Yeah. So, that's not true.

[Laughter]

SM:

OK. That's, that's great. I love it.

DF:

Yeah. I mean, so, obviously, you know, different countries have different traditions. But barbecue, as we, as it started in American barbecue, as we know it, there's such a unique coming together of the enslaved Africans and later, uh. . .

SM:

Uh-huh.

DF:

. . . African Americans, the indigenous people and their smoking techniques and the Europeans who brought over pigs and vinegar, which is a key component to. . .

SM:

Uh-huh.

DF:

. . . early American barbecue.

SM:

Yep.

DF:

So, that wasn't happening anywhere else in the world. That was happening in Virginia.

SM:

Okay.

DF:

And so, so, yeah, so, you know, no.

[Laughter]

I don't wanna talk badly about your friend, but that's not accurate.

SM:

[Laughter]

Hey, Hey, you know, he's a good pal, but he's, he's someone you can talk badly about.

DF:

[Laughter]

SM:

So, that's fine. Um, because I didn't know it. And I was like, oh, okay, well, that makes some sense, but. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . it doesn't in this.

And, and the other thing I, I, you know, when we talk about it becoming an American food, you know, and it has, it's become the American cuisine.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

We have the Southern cuisine, which absolutely. But this now has gone all over the United States. I live in California and it is huge now in California. They, the, uh, whether it's the Memphis style or the Kansas City style, or, you know, primarily here it's the separate side, the Texas style. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

But I want to know how did this cuisine, and it is a cuisine, become the huge thing that is in America right now. You know, well, certainly within the last five years, it's become. . .

DF:

Sure.

SM:

. . . this amazing thing. And, and here's something that came out of the enslaved occupation in Virginia. Uh. . .

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

And I just find that really genuinely remarkable, um, in such a huge country. So, have you, I mean, have you done much to explain that, have you looked at that, I mean, I'd love to know how it became this unique American cuisine.

DF:

Yeah. I think that, because it's something. . . . First of all, it's delicious, right? So, let's. . .

SM:

Okay. Yes.

DF:

. . . you know, so, so, that's the simple answer, right. But I think if you delve a little bit deeper, and particularly in the past few years, as you mentioned, I think the rise of food media over the past probably decade has really kind of picked people out who are kind of your, your stars, if you will.

SM:

Right.

DF:

So, you know, like you're Rodney Scott, he's a household name at this point.

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

You know, and so, people like that. And so, I think that people are trying to replicate that. And I think that, you know, because folks were grills became kind of accessible in the fifties.

SM:

Yep.

DF:

And so, people are out in the backyards and they're grilling. And so, they're barbecuing, not in the traditional sense of like digging a pit and that whole thing, but, you know, barbecue kind of became a verb versus a noun, if you will.

SM:

Yes, I know.

DF:

And so, you know, and so, I think that that has just kind of endured and so, hot dogs and hamburgers become barbecue, quote unquote, right? And so, I think that's synonymous with those Southern styles that we were kind of talking about. I think that that has just lent it so, that it's not only all over the country, but it's lasted for hundreds and hundreds of years.

SM:

I, I love the fact that you did choose, you know, the early Black Pitmasters for the way that you start. Because funny enough, when I talked about, uh, to Duff Goldman the other day. . .

DF:

Mmm.

SM:

. . . he, he came in and he said, okay, my first ones are the early people who bake bread. He goes, that's it. So, it's the same. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . kind of routine there. You've got these early Black Pitmasters, many of whom just aren't known.

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

Uh, you just have to go and. . . . But the fact is, they created this whole cuisine. So, I'm gonna, since I'm gonna do it, where's my pen. I'm going to go and mark that one off in my, in my thing. And I think that's good.

Now we're gonna come to, uh, your second one, which is James Hemings.

DF:

Mmm.

SM:

Now, I know James Hemmings, uh, because of my study doing this show and reading about it. Um, but I'd love you to tell, you know, just our audience, uh, who, you know, we have a lot of you, um, really, uh, who James Hemings is and what he did, because I think he did just an amazing thing because he, he contributed in a very short life. . .

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . so much to. . . yes. Uh, so, much towards the American cuisine again. So, please tell us about James Hemmings.

DF:

Yeah, absolutely. So, James Hemings was enslaved by Thomas Jefferson. And so, when he was 19, Thomas Jefferson took him to study food in Paris. And when, uh, when Jefferson was ambassador to France. And so, while he's there, he learned how to speak French fluently, but more importantly, he learns from French pastry chefs and from, uh, Royal chefs, how to make French cuisine that Jefferson absolutely loved. And so, he learns this, uh, all of these skills. He's there for, for a couple of years. Comes back to Virginia, to Monticello where Jefferson lives, and then. . .

SM:

Mm-hmm.

DF:

. . . essentially is recreating these dishes in what someone wrote as a half Virginian, half French style. And so, he's making things that we still eat today. So, he's bring. . . he brought back crème brûlée, French fries, macaroni and cheese, whipped cream. So, these things, again, that linger hundreds and hundreds of years.

SM:

Yep.

DF:

You know, they come from basically one person bringing them over and cooking them and teaching that, you know, to his brother, Peter, who, who became the chef later, and the other women in the kitchen. And so, that is how we get these dishes out in America.

SM:

And this is what I wanted to talk about first. . . . First of all, I mean, he was an enslaved man.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

But he, he goes over to Paris and I understand, that in Paris, he became a freed man. And then he came back to Paris where he was an enslaved man again.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

Was that something that you, you kind of know about or is, I mean, is that just, I mean, how does he do that with Thomas Jefferson or he just came back to being an enslaved man again. I just found that very, you know, weird, should we say, that he did that?

DF:

Yeah, absolutely. And, and I thought about it. I wrote an article about it a few years ago and I got to that part. . . portion of his life and was really trying to figure out why would you come back, you know?

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

You know, you're being paid well in France. You know the language. And you see free Black people walking around and why can only come with, I can come up with, the only answer I can come up with is family. His family is back here in Virginia, you know, and he doesn't wanna be apart from them. His sister, Sally Hemmings, is there in France and she's going back to Virginia with Jefferson. And so, I really think is the tie of a family that brings him back to be kind of willing to be enslaved again. Um, that is really the only thing I can come up with. Um, because otherwise, why would you, you know?

SM:

No, exactly. And I thought about this and I hadn't thought about family. And I. . . . But I was thinking about why he went back. Was he allowed more freedom?

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

But it's still an enslaved community. So, I just never thought about that. And it's something I think we have to talk about, but it it's an extraordinary one.

Um, you know, so, he was, you know, he came over to France. Let's talk about France a little bit, because again, you know, uh, a person coming over to France. Yes, there were freed Black people there. And it was a, you know, they had Cote d’Ivoire. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . they had a number of places that they had and they brought those people over to the, to the, to France. Um, but let's talk about him. He's 19.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

He's going over to France. He's going over, and I mention it in my notes here, a particular purpose. That's what he's called. That's what Thomas Jefferson calls him.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

And he goes to cook by these amazing chefs in France. Let's just talk about that for a while.

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

He's going at 19 to talk about those, this incredible food that he's, uh, learning there. I mean, what do you think? And this is a, a kind of a, a gesture thing, but what do you think he's thinking then?

DF:

Well, I think, you know, one, all indications point to him being very intelligent, very quick, very, um, astute. So, I imagine that he's soaking all of this up, you know, and I imagine there's a bit of culture shock as well. . .

SM:

Yep.

DF:

. . . because, you know, you're seeing these free Black people and obviously, you know, Monticello, which is a little more pastoral versus a bustling city, like Paris.

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

So, I can only imagine what that must have been like for him. Um, but you know, I, I think that he's just really soaking it all in. And I think that, you know, the early, you know, the precursor to the stoves that the French were using. . .

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

. . . he's never seen anything like that before, you know, and I imagine that he's thinking, oh my goodness, you know, one, what is this? How do you use it? And, you know, he's just soaking up all of that knowledge from the, from all of the French chefs. And I think that he may have been a little overwhelmed, but it also says to me that the money that he was paid by Jefferson, he chose to spend it on French lessons. That says to me that he really wanted to understand and know what was going on and, and really just soak up all of that information. So, um, I think he was probably going through a lot of emotional. . .

[Laughter]

. . . things all at once, but it does speak, I think, to his determination, to, to really kind of bear down and focus and, and learn these things. And apparently he was, he was very, very good at it.

SM:

Yes. I mean, one of the things I wanted to kind of just touch upon was his emotions. I actually had that word. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . written down and his emotions coming over from as a 19-year-old. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . over to France must have been really extraordinary as it would be for anyone now.

DF:

Sure.

SM:

And yet he was, he was, you know, he was an enslaved man. He was, you know, who, I dunno what his background was. And then he comes into this, I think was a really remarkable thing. But I want to, uh, first of all, let's talk about his death.

DF:

Mm.

SM:

Because we have to talk about why he died. He was what, thirty. . . six, I wanna say. . . .

DF:

36. Yeah. 36.

SM:

And he, he died outside of, uh, Thomas Jefferson's home, I believe in New York, but I may have got that wrong.

DF:

Yeah. He, so, he committed suicide, uh, in Baltimore, actually.

SM:

Ah, Baltimore. Okay.

DF:

And so, you know, yeah. And so, at this point, you know, he's working at a tavern, which, you know, in the 1800s, is not necessarily where you wanna be. You know, and I just, I often think about, you know, you've trained in France with the best chefs, arguably. . .

SM:

Yep.

DF:

. . . in the world. And then the only work that you can have or find is to basically work in a bar, you know, and what a. . .

[Laughter]

I, I can't even imagine what that must have been like, because there's just such a shift of, you know, from elegance and the pomp and circumstance of it all to go to creating bar food, um, with, within the span of a few years. Um, and so, he was free at that point because he negotiated for his freedom and, and Jefferson set him free. But, um, but I imagine that must have been very hard to deal with. Um, and I imagine that's probably part of why he decided to take his own life.

SM:

Yeah. It was something that, you know, I read about that and he, I believe, as well that he was, uh, alcoholic as well. Wasn't he? So, he had. . . .

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

So, here we have this amazing man who, even in 36 years, has lived probably more than we, you, we have.

DF:

Sure.

SM:

And he's just developing this alcohol problem. The. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . committing to suicide. But let's, let's. . . .

DF:

Can say one quick thing that, and the other thing that I think may add to is he may have felt a sense of guilt because part of the bargain for him to be free was he had to train his brother to take his place.

SM:

Ah.

DF:

And so, here he is a free man, and you're, you're training your brother, Peter, to still be a slave.

SM:

Ah.

DF:

So, I think that that is, I think there may have, you know, total conjecture, but I imagine there's probably a sense of guilt that's associated with that as well.

SM:

Wow. I didn't realize. And this is the fascinating, uh, story then that he was training Peter to be his. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . a slave.

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

I didn't realize that Peter wasn't free at this point. That's remarkable.

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

Wow. Um, well, I mean, I'm going to turn into, I'm gonna talk about what he, uh, wanted in terms of the food. Uh, but let's, do we know how Peter ended up then, because I just don't know about this. Uh, and, and then we'll talk about the. . .

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . the wonderful things that he left us, because I think that's a good way to leave it, but, uh, did Peter live, you know, a much longer life? Was he, you know, in, was he a, you know, a grateful person to end up coming out of enslavement? I just don't know. So, please tell us.

DF:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, Peter actually, so, he winds up cooking, um, and then he later teaches, uh, other women to cook in the same style. But Peter he's really interesting because his talent is in brewing. So, he's known as just this incredible brewer and Jefferson notes this in some of his, his journals. And so, I think people don't really think about that, which is really unfortunate because he had talent of his own as well. And so, um, I believe that he was ultimately sold as well and was not freed because when Jefferson died, um, he was in a lot of debt and unfortunately, uh, a lot of his slaves were sold to kind of make up for that debt on Monticello.

SM:

Oh, I didn't know any of this side of it. So, well, first of all, let's give praise to, uh, to Peter cuz he was obviously. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . an amazing person. Um, but let's, let's finish off with James. Let's talk about some of the food that he, he brought into this country. Let's talk about where they've gone, where they are now, all of these things that we all love. And it's because of James Hemmings, who was, you know, an enslaved man and when he came back to the US and really brought, you know, these foods to us. So, let's talk about some of those foods, if we can.

DF:

Yeah. So, I think the most, at least for me, near and dear to my heart is macaroni and cheese.

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

So. . .

[Laughter]

I absolutely love baked macaroni and cheese because there's a difference between kind of your stove top and, and baked, but that's a different discussion for a different day.

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

[Laughter]

But, um, but essentially it starts off as macaroni pie. So, it's the precursor to macaroni and cheese. Um, but you know, it's very similar. It's, you know, baked it's custardy in a way, it's cheese and, and pasta. And so, you know, as time goes on, you know, it becomes, um, you know, becomes more seasoned. So, yeah, so, the, the macaroni and cheese, um, evolves into essentially an American staple. Um, you know, French fries, like who, who does not associate America. . .

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

. . . with French fries. And so, you know, he wasn't the first person to create potatoes like that, but the first person that we can find in America, that's, that's eating potatoes in that way. And so, yeah. Cream brûlée.

SM:

Beautiful.

DF:

That's, that's another thing. And so, all of these really beautiful dishes that endure from France, we would not have, you know, here in America, if it weren’t for James Hemmings.

SM:

Well, I think despite his early passing, despite alcoholism, all the things, let's concentrate on the food.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

He really did, I think, brought some amazing food to the United States. So, thank you for him for that.

DF:

Yeah.

BREAK MUSIC

SM:

Hi everybody, this is Simon Majumdar, the creator and host of the Eat My Globe food history podcast. Now, those of you have been listening to the podcast since we began over two years ago – nearly 50 episodes so far – will know that we have never sought out sponsorship for the podcast. It’s very much been a labor of love. However, along the way, a large number of people have approached us suggesting they would like to support the podcast. And so, we have opened up a page on Patreon dot com to allow those of you who listen regularly to do just that. Any support we will get will allow us to purchase research materials, buy ingredients for recipes, and maybe, when we can get out and about, to bring you some very special in-the-field reporting. But, and this is really important. This is not just a one-way street. For varying levels of membership of our Patreon club, there will be access to fantastic Eat My Globe swag, including that incredible chopping board so many of you have written to me about, recipes based on historical periods about which we chat each week, video shout outs, signed pictures, and even along the way, some very special episodes just for members. So, if you’ve enjoyed the episodes of Eat My Globe you’ve listened to so far, and would like us to make many more into the future, do head over to www dot Patreon dot com slash Eat My Globe and consider taking out a membership. Any support will be much appreciated. Remember, that’s www dot Patreon dot com slash Eat My Globe. So, thank you very much, and keep listening.

And now we get to someone who in a way is, uh, la, well, she was La Grande Dame for. . .

DF:

Mmm.

SM:

. . . for food. Uh, you tell us about Edna Lewis.

DF:

Yes. And, and so, I, I smile because this is, yeah, another Virginia person.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

Just, I don't know if you're noticing a trend here. Um, but yeah.

[Laughter]

SM:

Totally all, all, all delightful to have.

DF:

[Laughter]

But yeah. So, Edna Lewis, you know, she's actually, um, born, you know, in a place that wasn't actually far from Monticello, which is kind of interesting, but, um, but yeah, I mean, she is such a fascinating person, in my opinion. Um, you know, everyone thinks about Julia Child and, and that sort of thing. But I think that it's Edna Lewis because her story is insane. I mean, you know, you're starting it off, you're born in a small town that's created by formerly a slave people, you know.

SM:

Yes.

DF:

You moved to New York, um, and you work at a communist newspaper as a typist, like what?

[Laughter]

And then you're creating dresses for Marilyn Monroe. And this is all before you become a chef, you know?

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

This is so, I cannot even imagine what that would look like in movie, in movie form. But, um, but she was really extraordinary because in, in a culinary way, because she really does introduce the country through her cookbooks, you know, seasonal cooking and Southern cooking in a way that hadn't really been done before. Um, and, and so, it's just there, you really cannot put, quantify really the effect that she had on American cooking and, um, you know, more people need to kind of celebrate her. I think there was a time where it was like a blip where people knew who she was and then, you know, it is kind of gone away a little bit, but, um, but really she, her contribution cannot be you, you can't even quantify it.

SM:

Well for, I mean, for me, and I did know about her, but I didn't before I did, uh, an episode on, you know, women in to, in, in, uh, food. Uh, she's a remarkable character. I mean, the fact is she was called, La Grande Dame of Southern Cuisine, uh, Les Dames d’Escoffier. And, um, yet what I find really hard is, in the last few years, people have forgotten about her.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

Uh, not people like you, a food anthropologist, which is great, but people have really forgotten about her as, uh, just this remarkable cook, the woman who wrote the cook. . ., these amazing what, three cookbooks now?

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

She wrote. And the middle one, I think, is the one that I, everyone and I have a copy of it somewhere. Um, it is a remarkable book and that was the one I think that took her to. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . uh, to popularity. Um, but could you tell everyone about her life a little? You talked about it there, but I mean, you touched on it. But her life was just an extraordinary life. Um, and I think, like you said, as a movie, it's an amazing, uh, film, but tell us about her life, if you would.

DF:

Yeah. I mean, I think what's so, interesting, you know, it's so, when she goes to New York and so, speaking of again, from the culinary perspective, and so, when she begins cooking, you know, she's making dishes for, you know, Tennessee Williams and like these really brilliant artistic people of the day in New York and she's introducing them to food that they've never even thought about.

[Laughter]

You know what I mean?

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

And so, I mean, think about, I don't know, a spoonbread, you know, in New York, in, in the 19, what in the 1950s, like that's an. . . . What, you know?

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

And so, she really expands, I think what Southern cooking is, you know, because it's more than your fried chicken. It's more than the macaroni and cheese. You know, it's really an, a very delicate and flavorful and very based on the seasons and what's growing at the time. I think people don't necessarily, I think, is very on trend right now, but 50 years ago, that was simply not the case. No one thought about it in that way. And as a matter of fact, they thought of Southern food as kind of like the stepchild, you know, and like the kind of, you know. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

. . . throwaway food over there. Who's eating that, you know, but it's really, you know, an intelligent food, an intelligent, um, way and creative way to, to make food. And that's also delicious. And so, um, I think that she really, for me, is the person that spearheads that through, through those cookbooks. Um, you, you know, but, but absolutely extraordinary that she has single handedly, as a Black woman, like, does this and introduces us to the country.

SM:

I think, for me, it was reading about the fact that, you know, before that. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . when there were Southern cookbook, they were always written by white people who, you know, took all the information from a lot of Black people and then, but then passed it off as their own.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

I mean, or at least showed it as their own. And I, I mean, I wonder about that. I mean, obviously, uh, a lot of the, uh, Black ladies who were doing it, um, particularly ladies, um, weren't being given any influence weren't being given any of that. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

And so, I, I wonder how that, how it feels to the Black women who showed that. I mean, they were amazing, amazing personalities. Um, I mean, do you think that was something that Edna Lewis thought about when she came in to write her own cookbooks?

DF:

I can't imagine that she didn't think about it. You know, I mean, she clearly, she's the granddaughter of enslaved people, you know, so, I, you know, what she's eating, where she's from, where she grew up, that is all from slavery and from that . . .

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

. . . kind of background. So, I can't imagine that she did not think about or feel the impact of what she was doing. Um, even though, you know, some people say, oh, she's just cooking her family's food, but it's so, much more than that. Like all of those things, you know, um, “In Pursuit of Flavor,” which is personally my preferred. . .

[Laughter]

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

. . . cookbook of her, hers, but she's telling stories of even my childhood, like she, that cookbook is a snapshot of not only, you know, Southern food, but Virginia food like it, because it's, so, it is so, specific. Like she's naming Virginia spots, which is a fish here that everyone eats are super common. Like she is really opening the door today. And so, I cannot imagine that that was not prevalent in her mind at the time when she decided to, to share not only her recipes, but stories of how she grew up and how her family was cooking at the time. I can’t imagine it wasn't top of mind.

SM:

I hope. . . . Um, if she was around now, she would be amazing. She would be a, uh, I mean, yes she is, but she would be astonishing now people would know all about her. They would be, because she was a character.

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

I mean, she was a cha. . . . And, um, I wonder if you thought she was around now, how you think she would be, how she, I mean, I'm just saying that because I just wonder if she was born out of her time.

DF:

Yeah. I mean, I think maybe just a little too soon, right?

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

Like I think that she would probably be, you know, the face of Food Network, you know. . .

[Laughter]

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

. . . by this point, because it was what she did was so, influential and, you know, for chefs today to even continue to reference her books and her work, you know, and it frames like Mashama Bailey, she wrote the foreword to in, “In Pursuit of Flavor.” And, you know, to think that years and years later, that influence and the way she thought about food and, you know, it is, she, she would be a huge star. She would, she would definitely be on, you know, the front of magazines and people would know who she was. It wouldn't be like, Edna Lewis, wait, that might sound familiar. No, people, she would be like Oprah.

[Laughter]

SM:

Yeah. I, I really do believe that. So, here's the thing to, to people who are listening at home, who don't know Edna Lewis, they need to, uh, they need to go out, they need to find, I mean, you can find, I mean, any of the books are worthwhile, so, I'm not suggesting that any of them aren’t. I do love, uh, “Taste of Country Cooking.” Um, if you are out there, go and find them, uh, you know, you may have to look in, I mean, and this is crazy. You may have to look in like thrift stores or, I mean, just to find them, but you do have to go to, uh, uh, bookstores, go and find them, uh, look at them. They are amazing cookbooks. You need to have them in your collection. If you have a, a recipe collection, you need to go and find them. They are really, really astonishing cookbooks. And they changed the way that we looked at, you know, Southern food. They really did. So, I want to, that's my own, that's my suggestion of many I'm going to do today, I'm sure. But so, go and look at those books. They are fantastic. Please do that for me.

Um, now we're gonna talk about your fourth person, and this is someone I had no idea about. So, um, apart from the fact that I'm, I'm hard pressed to speak about oysters, cuz I've been allergic to them for, uh, a long time. And, um, I have many stories about that when I tried to have one in Scotland and all, all types of pl. . ., uh, places and I got very ill. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . um, so, we'll speak of, we won't talk about that necessarily, but, um, I just didn't know about Thomas Downing. So, please, I mean, for me and for everyone, please tell us about him because he was a remarkable person.

DF:

Oh my goodness. Thomas Downing. I found out about him a few years ago and yes, another Virginian.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

It's no problem. There is no problem here. I promise you. This is great.

DF:

Um, so, he's born in 1790 of Virginia and uh, yeah, he grew up fishing and oystering, that sort of thing. Uh, he heads to Philadelphia and then later New York and he's an oyster farming, uh, farmer, excuse me. But he essentially, he creates a oyster house. So, pre-Downing, there were some, there were, uh, oyster sellers, which were, um, really grungy bar, whatever’s underneath bar. So, I guess a dive bar kind of thing.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

They were not places where women, you know, of, of good reputation went and. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

[Laughter]

. . . you know, oysters, that's true. Uh, oysters were seen as, you know, food for poor people and not very trendy, much like lobsters were at the time.

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

And so, essentially he creates an oyster house in, in New York, in Manhattan and it's opulent. It's beautiful, you know, and he's created these dishes that, you know, terrapins and uh, poultry stuffed with oysters, these really elevated. . .

SM:

Yep.

DF:

. . . beautiful dishes. And so, because it was close to Wall Street, you know, he had really wealthy people come in and, and taste his food. And so, that's kind of how his popularity grows. Um, and so, in my opinion, and, and I have made this argument before, he's changed the way Americans look at oysters and fine dining.

SM:

Okay.

DF:

And so, you know, because before him, it was trash.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

Essentially.

[Laughter]

Um, and after him, you know, you're eating it, you know, on a bed of ice with Champagne. And, and so, that is all due to Thomas, Thomas Downing.

SM:

And what I love about Thomas Downing. And perhaps you can tell us a little bit about this because people may not know, um, he deliberately set it up on top of, uh, the, the, uh, what do you call it? The, um, let me get this right. Sorry. I can't get it right. Uh, the Underground Railway.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

And tell us a bit about the Underground Railway and what that means, you know, to, to people from, I mean, to the African American community, because it was very, very special.

DF:

Absolutely. So, uh, prior to the Civil War, when, when African Americans were still enslaved, um, something came about called the Underground Railroad, which is basically, uh, hideouts, if you will. It was a connection of people that led from the South to the North. So, and so, people who had safe houses and safe areas for, uh, people who were running away to essentially stay. And so, you would kind of get passed on and figure and know where the next house someone would tell you, you know, where you needed to go, where would it be safe for you to hide, to, you know, to sleep, to get some food before you went to the next stop, quote unquote. And so, uh, Thomas Downing's Oyster House was a stop on the Underground Railroad.

SM:

Amazing.

DF:

And so, while white patrons are dining and drinking Champagne, and, you know, in all this opulence, in the basement were enslaved people who were hiding . . .

SM:

Wow.

DF:

. . . and resting and eating, and really just trying to become free people on their way to Canada and beyond. So, uh, it, it's really remarkable that there's this economy going on simultaneously. Um, and you know, and the diners never knew. They never found out that what was going on, you know, in the basement. And so, that's what for me, makes the story even more special. . .

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

. . . not only, you know, incredible in changing something, um, in American food, but he's clever enough to, to hide this in plain sight and really make sure that, that people are safe on their way to freedom.

SM:

I, I love the fact that yes, as this, I guess, wealthy man, he was running this beautiful . . .

DF:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmmm.

SM:

. . . but underneath it, he was actively helping people. And, and this was one of the things I, uh, I wanted to talk about because I mean, I, I just went and did some research on him.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

He was a member of the Commission of 13, a society to protect those who would be kidnapped in the North and sold in the South, which I never knew about, about, I mean, I knew about that kidnapping, but I didn't know about that. Uh, and a society of anti-slavery in New York. So, I mean, this guy was, uh, well-known. He was talking and yet he was still running this Underground, uh, Railroad behind it, which was amazing. Um, and no, I've asked this, I mean, I asked this in a, in a, in a small way with you now, but the difference between the North and the South then must have been extraordinary between the, you know, and, and you are, you live in the South and you love the South and you love all the food, but it must have been, I mean, extraordinary then, and I, I've just come because, you know, I've, I've been watching the, um, Ken Bruce, and I've been looking at all of those things. I mean, how would that feel to live in the South.

DF:

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's challenging.

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

You know, and so, to talk about the past, I mean, you know, the South is largely, you know, agricultural, um, it's less urban. Uh, there are less opportunities for African Americans, whereas the North is industrialized. It's very urban, it's a quicker pace. Um, and so, although there, the further north you go, there are anti-slavery laws, um, and states are not bordering what becomes known as the Confederacy later. Um, it still was anti-Black. So, it wasn't like it was a refuge or, you know, an Eden or anything like that. But even the, the smallest, you know, bit more of opportunity, you were willing to take that chance to try, you know, to create a better life for yourself and for your family. And so, you know, present day, you know, speaking for myself, it is challenging because it is a place I love and it has very deep culture and roots and beauty, but at the same time, it's incredibly problematic in some ways, you know? And so, there's this push and pull that goes on, I think with, with a lot of African Americans in the South who, you know, this is where you grew up, this is your home, but at the same time, you know, that there's a history there where, you know, you weren't one and respected, treated equally. So, there's a, there's a push and pull that goes on a lot. That that's a little difficult to navigate at times.

SM:

Yeah. And, and it feels very strange coming from California, which relatively in LA is a very kind of cosmopolitan. And. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . you know, they, they accepted me, who's an Indian, they, you know, and I, we just see that all of this come together. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . um, we find it very hard, I think, genuinely very hard to look at.

Um, well now we're going to move on because we're going to have one, uh, more person, and then I'm gonna ask you some kind of general questions. Um, but we are gonna talk about someone who I've written about on the show. And so, this is someone who I, I got to know and I got to know, love, and she was, I mean, she died fairly young as well. Um, but why don't you tell us about Lena Richard?

DF:

Yeah, absolutely. The only person I list, not from Virginia.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

That's how much I love her, that she’s on the list, but I think Lena Richard, um, really, you know, she's the first Black woman to have a cooking show. She's from New Orleans. I guess I'll give a little bit of background. She's born in the 1890s. Uh, she starts working as the domestic, um, I think 14 or 15. Um, and so, the family enjoyed her cooking so much that they paid for her to go Boston and take cooking classes. While she's there, uh, she's, she's basically learning that she already knows all this stuff and the people in her class are like, wait, tell us how to do this. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

DF:

. . . tell us how to do that. Um, which I think is really cool. Um, and so, she comes back to New Orleans and she self-publishes a cookbook and a publishing house checks up on it and that becomes a success. And, uh, she opens a school, um, you know, to kind of, to teach African Americans in her community about fine dining and how to, uh, to work in the hospitality center. And so, it's just really, you know, an interesting and robust life. And then she, you know, has her own cooking show. So, that. . .

[Laughter]

. . . that's the super short version, but clearly, I mean, she's done so, much, she's, you know, right. You know, she's the first Black woman to have a Creole cookbook that's not written by a white person. I mean, that's something that's really notable, um, you know, and to be on television, to have the school, frozen foods. I mean, she was. . .

[Laughter]

. . . it's like, what does she not do? You know, talk about Food Network and, and product placement like this is, this is Lena Richard. And so, she just an extraordinary person who I think does not get talked about enough.

SM:

I, I really, really agree, which is why I put her in this, uh, group of four women that I wrote about that was someone like Fanny Cradock in England, which you may not know, but who was this incredible large and bouffant and very fun, uh, woman who used to cook in a tiara while on the Royal Albert Hall stage and, and in the fifties, uh, you know, I had, um, I can't remember who else I wrote about now, but the one person I just really fell in love with was Lena Richard. And the reason I, first of all, let's just talk about, uh, her shows.

DF:

Okay.

SM:

The show started in 1949 and she started. . . . There's, I think there's only, I think, there's one clip, but there may even, I can't even look at that. May not look at that now. . . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

Um, but it's 1949. I mean, there's an extraordinary period of time since she started.

DF:

Yeah. I mean that, it's, it's so difficult to wrap one's head around, right. Because this is before, this is, you know, “separate but equal” time period. You know, this is before the equal rights vote. That's, it's before all of these things.

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

And so, to see a Black woman on television and she's cooking the food of her pe. . ., of her area and you know, of her people, so, to speak, that's extraordinary. She's, she's being authentically who she is.

SM:

Yep.

DF:

And authentically presenting. Okay. So, this is the food New Orleans. This is not some sort of watered down version of it. This is it. This is, you know, this, I'm proud of this. And, and I want to share this with you. I think that's pretty extraordinary given the year, you know, and, you know, there was nothing like that to even compare it to at that point in time.

SM:

Yeah. And, and that was, I was going to mention as well, the, the Creole cookbook, which I have, and I, you know, I love, and, um, she was writing it, like you said, at a time we mentioned before she was writing at a time when, you know, white people would take it and take it into kind of a wider, wider scale, um, which we can, you know, we can understand from them, but not from now. And she wrote this incredible book and at, she was the first person, I think, writing the, well, I mean, there were people publishing, you know. . .

DF:

Right.

SM:

. . . who we know in the 1850s and publishing one or two books, but, um, this African, this, uh, Creole cookbook was extraordinary. And, and have you got the book? Can you tell us about it, please tell, because I think it's a great book. I love reading it.

DF:

Yeah. I mean, I think what's so interesting about it because some food is diverse is not some blanket statement because the regionality is so incredibly different. And so, to read, you know, so, it's obviously of its time, but let's take something as basic as gumbo, for example.

SM:

Yep.

DF:

You know, which, you know, at that point in time, how well known was that in Alabama or in Georgia or in Virginia, you know?

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

That would've been mind-blowing, you know, to folks. And so, I, I just, you know, when I read, I kind of think back to that time period and think this must have been a revelation to a lot of people to think about, you know, Andouille sausage, what. . .

[Laughter]

. . . like, what is that we're using ham? What are you talking about? You know? And so, I think that it just really was able to illuminate the, you know, the eyes of a lot of people to recognize that Southern food isn't monolithic. And I think that people don't necessarily associate that with her, but I think that's a really incredible point because that it's, it's Creole, it is Southern, but so different. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

DF:

. . . from, you know, what you think of as traditional Southern food. And I think that's something really extraordinary.

SM:

I think when you think of the range of Southern food, Gullah Geechee, with all the different . . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . with all of this range is, you know, the, the Southern food. . . . And I let's just talk about that. The Southern food is so wide ranging. You, you are, you are much more than I am, you know, knowledgeable about that. Can you give some information about the types there that would be really fascinating?

DF:

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, so, let's think about, um, in South Carolina, for example, with Gullah Geechee food. And so, you've got, you know, red rice and you've got these dishes that are very, um, seafood focused because obviously you're Charleston and those surrounding areas around water. So, that is so different from what we're eating like in Virginia, you know, so, whereas, you know, the [inaudible] area is very like water focused, but generally, you know, the collards and the hoecakes and those kind of traditional dishes completely different, you know, and as we just talked about in New Orleans, that's a whole different. . .

SM:

Oh yeah.

[Laughter]

DF:

. . . ballgame ‘cause of the French and Spanish. So, like, that's almost, you know, you almost don't wanna call it Southern food, but yet it is. And so, I think, you know, when you go to the deep South and you go to Alabama, you know, they're not eating, you know, a lot of seafoods, largely land locked. So, you know, they're focusing on poultry and pork and those sorts of heavy dishes and, and gravies and that sort of thing. So, like, just depending on where you are, you're gonna get different meal and it’s all Southern. But they're all completely different.

SM:

You know, let me just ask one question. This is just, uh, for me, which is one of the things I noticed about all of these people that you mentioned, um, they're all being long forgotten, I think, apart from maybe barbecue in a sense. . .

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

. . . but they're not looking back to where they. . . . And I, you know, I wondered is that because of their African American heritage or is that just because it's a long time ago? Um, and I, and I just, or is it a bit of both?

DF:

I think it's a bit of both, but, you know, but I think about Julia Child, right?

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

So, that's a while ago, but we're still getting HBO shows about Julia Child.

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

You know, there are movies coming out about her that Meryl Streep is in. So, you know, her contemporary, Lena Richard, where where's that movie? Where's that show?

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

So, it's hard.

[Laughter]

It's hard to not see as racial in that lens, but at the same time, it was hundreds of years ago. But I also think that it's because African Americans, their, their contributions to food were not largely written down. So, because you don't have any sort of, um, documentation, you don't have a lot of documentation to fall back on, you know, you have to, you have to work to find these stories. You have to really. . .

SM:

Yeah.

DF:

. . . delve in and really be looking for it. And so, I think, um, unless you're looking for it, you're not gonna find it. You're not gonna hear about it. You're not gonna think about it. So, I think it's those three things that, that trifecta is why a lot of these folks just don't get the due that they deserve.

SM:

Yeah. I, I, yeah, I, it's kind of the question, the answer I was expecting, which is, which is very sad, I think, because, and as I read through these, I just find them fascinating characters. They're amazing characters. They all connect so, much.

Um, before we go on just some fun questions, which we're gonna, yeah. Just have some real fun with, um, I wanna thank you because I think coming on to talk about these characters will help, um, you know, this show, I mean, relatively gets a, a, a lot of listeners and I think that we'll help get these names out there. Pe. . ., one person will listen to, oh, well, I'm interested in barbecue. So, let me go and read about those people, because I'll read about that one person listens to is interested in oysters, whatever it is, they're all going to go and listen to these people and they'll go and listen to one or two.

Um, some, that's the other question I'm putting to you, folks, go and listen to these, go and, and, uh, go and buy some books, go and really search out these people. Go and read some of the things that Debra's, uh, written already. Um, just go and listen to them, okay? So, I'm really talking to you about that.

Um, but now, let's have some fun. Okay. Let's have some fun. We're gonna do three questions. I, I do these to everyone who comes on. Uh, so, you've had, uh, you know, you've had, you've talked to us about your past, um, okay. Fun questions. If Debra Freeman was a meal, what would it be?

DF:

Mmm.

[Laughter]

If, if I were a meal, I, you know, I I'm thinking back to what I ate growing up. And what was my favorite. And so, it would be two things. It would be collard greens, but with white potatoes on them cuz that's how my grandmother made it.

SM:

Okay.

DF:

That's extremely important. And something that I'm not sure a lot of people know about, but would be fried crab, which is a hard shell, blue crab dipped in batter and seasoned and deep fried. . .

SM:

Whoa.

DF:

. . . and right. And is messy and nonsensical, but is the most delicious thing, um, on the planet. And so, um, it's hard to find. You can't really find it in very many places, but it is spot on delicious. Oh my gosh. And now that I've said it out loud, I want to have some immediately.

[Laughter]

SM:

Well now you've said it, I want to go and eat it as well, which is, uh, which is a little difficult in California, but you know. . .

DF:

[Laughter]

Yeah.

SM:

. . . I could go and find it.

Um, number two. Now, if you could select any specific meal in history, so you have to go back or a period in history, what meal would that be?

DF:

This one's super easy for me. So, uh, the meal where Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton met in New York where James Hemmings, um, made a meal for them while they figure out where the capital was going to be. Um, and so, I think there were artichokes and truffles. Um, there was beef a la mode, um, capons, uh, that were stuffed with Virginia ham. That meal sounds extraordinary and I would love to taste James Hemmings’ food. So, that is the meal I would wanna be in.

SM:

That is fantastic. Actually again, I would really like to be there as well.

[Laughter]

DF:

[Laughter]

SM:

Just quite frankly, even before Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton turned up just for the meal. . .

DF:

Exactly.

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . that, yeah, just, that sounds really exciting.

DF:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

Now, what would you consider to be the greatest invention in food history?

DF:

This was tough. This was tough. Uh, but refrigeration, I think, and I'm sure that's a super common answer, but, you know, if not for refrigeration, you know, I wouldn't be able to taste things from different places. I would never be able to try them without the advent of refrigeration. So, uh, shout out to, to, yeah, I, I don't know who created the refrigerator in the ice box, but shout out to them.

[Laughter]

SM:

Well, interestingly enough, uh, we have a person coming on Eat My Globe on this season, uh, where, you know, sometimes I write my own re, uh, uh, episodes and sometimes we have interviews and we spread them out. We have someone coming on who, uh, is writing a book called, “Of Ice and Men.”

DF:

Oh my gosh.

SM:

And he will talk about all, all the whole of refrigeration, uh, going back though to, um, the times going back to 3000 BC. Ice, where they were, uh, ice cubes who were brought in from the mountains and buried in, in like the deserts underground. And they were kept to keep things cool only by the Kings.

DF:

Oh my gosh.

SM:

This goes all the way through. There was a kind of gap in the Middle Ages where they could kind of got a little ice, but they'd lost a lot of their things. The Romans could make ice. The, I mean, it was really fascinating right up to the 18th century where, uh, there's a lot of, um, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, the scientists and people got together and started making ice.

DF:

Whoa.

SM:

Um, so, it's really fascinating. So, if you want to get chance, he's a, he's a chap called Frederick Hogge. . .

DF:

Okay.

SM:

. . . so do come and listen to him.

DF:

Yes, it's amazing.

SM:

Yeah, it's, it's an, it's an amazing one. And I've done a little bit about refrigeration before and one of my heroes is a chap called Thomas. Uh, my name, my, uh, mind has gone now, but he's, uh, Thomas the what? I can't remember his name, uh, but he is one of the absolute famous, he used to collect ice from, uh, Newark and from, uh, the Boston and he would put it in, uh, blocks and he would send it to India. And so, they could have ice in their drinks from, uh, port, what was it called? Uh, I can't remember what the river was. He went from now, but he would get them to collect whole big blocks of ice and they'd send it to India. I mean, it's amazing.

DF:

Wow.

SM:

Um, yeah, it really is. And so, I'm, we're gonna talk to him about that.

Anyway. Um, and finally, uh, you know, let's, let's tell everyone where we can find you on, uh, Twitter and all of those. Um.

DF:

Yeah.

SM:

Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. I dunno if TikTok counts for you, but if you I'm on TikTok and it's, uh, mind you, I haven't posted in ages, but, uh, you know, it's, but, um, let's have a look, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, you know, you can tell us where we can find you.

DF:

Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm Deb Freeman on Facebook, and on Instagram and on Twitter, um, I'm audiophile girl, uh, which is A U D I O P H I L E girl. Um, and so, I post pretty frequently about, well, I'm working on and other kind of interesting facts. So, please follow me.

SM:

I couldn't dance for, I couldn't find you on Instagram, which is why I was looking at, uh, uh, uh, I was, is it the same thing as you've got on Twitter then?

DF:

Um, it's the same thing.

SM:

Oh, I, I was just looking for Deb Freeman.

[Laughter]

Sorry. Um, uh, so, it has been a real joy. I can't tell you, this has been such a pleasure to talk to you, uh, to talk about all of these amazing people, mostly from Virginia and may and whatnot, which is great. Um, it's just been so, fantastic because I didn't know about all, as many of these people and a lot of them are just new to me. So, thank you so, much. Uh, it's been such a pleasure, um. . .

DF:

Thank you.

SM:

. . . and thank you for, and thank you. Thank you for being on Eat My Globe.

DF:

Thank you so, much. You letting what a treat to be on. Thank you.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Do make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www dot Eat My Globe dot com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

And, if you like what you hear, please don’t forget to subscribe, recommend us to your family and friends and give us a good rating on your favorite podcast provider. That really makes a difference.

Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE, a podcast about things you didn’t know you didn’t know about food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

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Also, a huge thank you to Sybil Villanueva for her help with research and the preparations of the transcripts for this episode, which can be found on the website.