Eat My Globe

Interview with Historian & Award-Winning Author

Professor Ken Albala

INTRO MUSIC

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

Welcome to Eat My Globe, a show that brings you all the things you didn't know you didn't know about food. And in today's very special episode, we are going to be looking at an aspect, in fact, an aspic of cuisine that has been with us since the medieval times and whose history and usage has been the subject of my new guest study. Ken Albala is the professor of the history of the University of the Pacific. He's the author and co-author of 25 books, which makes my own piddly little three seem rather well piddly. Uh, these include books that I'm gonna be studying for some of my next seasons. “Beans.” “The Lost Art of Real Cooking.” And, “Noodle Soup: Recipes, Techniques, and Obsession.” I have become aware of Ken from his always interesting Facebook posts, and then through the work of Sessions for the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, and most recently on his latest book, “The Great Gelatin Revival: Savory Aspics, Jiggly Shots, and Outrageous Desserts,” about which I'm going to get jiggly with him now. So, with not so slippery answers, welcome Ken Albala.

Ken Albala (“KA”):

Thank you so much for having me.

SM: First of all, tell us all a little bit about who you are, because a lot of the listeners today will want to go and buy the book and find out more about you. And of course, before we finish, we can give all away your Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and more importantly, your Facebook feeds. Uh, so tell us a bit about who you are.

KA:

Sure. I'm a professor of history at the University of Pacific, which is in Stockton, California. And I started, um, working on the history of nutritional theory in the Renaissance, um, when I was at Columbia doing graduate work, and kind of drifted from there into the history of cooking and kitchens and fine dining banqueting and things like that, and have really never written about anything but food. So, it's, it's, um, what I do every day is I cook and I write about food, and I teach about food. So, it's, I kind of lucked out having my, my passion and my professional line.

SM:

Uh, you, you remind me a bit of, um, one of my guests who's been on a few times. My favorite friend Paul Freedman.

KA:

So, Paul. . . figured out, and I don't know how he did this, but he asked me if I had ever written anything but food history, like if I, like, if I'd come to it from another field and I haven't. Um, and he ventured to guess that I'm the first person who is food historian and nothing else.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

First, [inaudible]. He determined that, not me. Interestingly.

SM:

He's, he's a fantastic person, has been on, uh, three times now with his works. And we just love, love, love talking to him. And we got to know him through, uh, UCLA with whom we do, uh, lots of work. So, he's fantastic. Um, let's start about gelatin by trying to. . . . Well, let's describe it because I think a lot of people just don't know what it is, can't get a handle on it. And you say that it comes from the words “gelu” from the ancient Romans. So, what does it mean?

KA:

Yeah, so gelum, gelu means, uh, ice, and I think when people first saw gelatin, they couldn't imagine what it was, how it happened, and the texture is strange, but it looks like ice, if it's, if, especially if, if it's clarified. So, gelatin just kind, kind of means a little ice, um. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

. . . and it's there. I mean, it's there, you know, through the Romans, of course. And even in prehistoric times, if you boil a lot of skin or bones and, you know, nubbly bits on an animal, it will solidify when you put it out into the cold. So, it's not something that someone, you know, discovered or comes, comes on history all at once. It's really there anytime you boil bones, which is prehistoric.

SM:

And in, in the kind of ancient Roman times, did they have any use for it or. . . .?

KA:

There are no recipes? No. So. . .

[Laughter]

. . . so, and ancient Romans don't leave any account. It's really in the medieval period that gelatin start becomes very, very popular. And all the medieval cookbooks have recipes. The, um, Forme of Cury in  England and, uh, the Libre de Sent Sovi and the Italian, uh, Taillevant. So, so that's, its, its sort of first real heyday.

SM:

And let's, uh, let's go onto to kind of the science of it, because I don't, I don't know anything about science at all, which I probably should do, but I, I know nothing. Um, but perhaps you could tell us about how it is made, uh, both the kind of natural procedure and then perhaps this, you know, cooking procedure as it were.

KA:

Right. So, so gelatin is, uh, what's called a hydro colloidal suspension. And some of them are reversible hydro colloidal suspensions, meaning, and all that really means is that it, it's something that can, water can be held in a solid form by it. Um, reversible just means you can melt your gelatin and then reset it. Some kinds of, um, sus. . . hydro hydrocolloidal suspensions, like, like pectin, um, can't. So, if you melt your marmalade, you can't put it back to set. Um, but there are other things that do make jello also. So, like agar, which is, uh, a kind of seaweed [inaudible]. Um, those have a slightly different texture. They don't ha. . . they're not jiggly.

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

Which, which makes them less interesting to me. But, but the advantage of those is that they're vegetarian and that they don't melt in the heat. If you, if you take a gelatin in summer and you put it outside. . .

[Laughter]

. . . it will get soft and melt.

SM:

Fantastic. Um, and so I think that tells a lot of people what jelly is. Um, but you say in your book, it was produced in pre-history, uh, but aspect, aspics rather were definitely produced in the medieval period. So, first of all, what made them come up with, you know, aspics to put in food in the medieval period? Was it just because they can get different colors and. . . .?

KA:

Yeah, I think that's part of it. The medieval cooking is really into a variety of aromas and per. . . perfumes in food like rosewater and ambergris and colors and into spectacles. So, gelatin being very malleable, they would actually make layers of gelatin, what's called a leach. To leach means to slice. In fact, that it's surgeons are, it's are called leach craft also. But this is something that you would lay down a layer of green jello with parsley and then yellow with saffron, and then blue with turnesole. And then when you slice it, you get these lovely striations of color and the medieval period love that. The whole idea of bright colors and, you know, cause they were, I guess if you lived in a very drab. . .

[Laughter]

. . . kinda period in your clothes and in, you know, if you could have purple, that was something magnificent.

SM:

And so, Hmm. What, what kind of countries are we looking at? Because, um, I know from reading about it, uh, you've looked at countries that are doing it in a very culinary way in the high end, and then you've got people who are doing it, you know, in a kind of head meat and that kind of way. And that's very low end.

KA:

Right. Well, it depends on the kind of jello. So, in Western Europe, it is definitely something you would see at court in the medieval period and in the Renaissance. In fact, Henry VIII, one of his favorite things was a jello, um, made blue with turnsole . . .

[Laughter]

So that's. . . and it's sweet and it's made with wine and it's absolutely delicious.

There, there's very different kinds of jello. Um, there's the very simple one, which you just boil some pig’s feet and flavor. It's flavored like meat. And then you take the meat off the bones and you let it solidify like pacha and, you know, through Eastern Europe, Russia, even in Germany, head cheeses, those are all things that are a kind of aspic, they're ugly to look at, but they're really delicious cause they taste like bones and meat and things. That's very different than something that is simmered a long time, clarified with an egg graft, you know, and then sweetened, and then wine is added. And that, that's takes a lot more expertise and to serve that at court, and especially once they develop molds, you have these big towering centerpieces that come out and are, you know, those are difficult to make and they're magnificent to eat also.

SM:

I know when I read about, um, Carême, we see more about what he does with these towering centerpiece and, and, uh, he was, um, doing, uh, service à la française, wasn't he? So, it was all out in this big, uh, what's the word, big exhibition at the end of the meal.

KA:

Right. Right.

SM:

And people would run up and eat all of them. And, and so that reminds me of that.

KA:

Pièce montée. So, he would do like Chinese pagoda or Roman ruins or something in pastry or gelatin. Gelatin's harder.

[Laughter]

Because, you know, you need all those molds to do it. So, so I think that, that the era of Carême really re. . . re reignites the interest in gelatin, um, for that whole Victorian era.

SM:

But tell, tell us about, uh, you know, you talk about hartsorn rather.

KA:

Uh, hartshorn. So, at a heart. . .

SM:

Hartshorn.

KA:

. . . is a deer and it's horn is there.

SM:

Hartshorn.

KA:

Yeah. So those. . . . That would be a kind of instant jello. You'd basically just grate, um, a young heart's horn and it dissolves in the water and it becomes gelatin. But even more popular than that is Isinglass, which is the swim bladder of a sturgeon. Um, it's, you know, as hard to find as sturgeon is now and expensive because caviar is expensive. They use it actually to repair manuscripts and vellum. So, librarians use it. I got my hands on some and made gelatin out of it. It's almost instant. You just dissolve it in water, add flavorings. And, um, that was the preferred jello, uh, form up until the mid-19, even, even well into the 20th century. And then it disappears with, you know, caviar.

SM:

[Laughter]

I noti. . . I, I remember reading. . . . Well, writing about as well in one of my things that caviar was so, uh, cheap in, uh, kind of nn. . . northeastern, uh, US that it was, it, it, they used to give it away in sandwiches. . .

KA:

Right.

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . uh, in bars and stuff. I always thought that was funny. Uh, but now we think of it as being so expensive.

KA:

Overfished the, the sturgeon. That's what happened. Yeah.

SM:

Yeah. You, you say that the, you know, the love of gelatin. . .

[Laughter]

. . . was often followed by a kind of a drop in, uh, why gelatin became less popular, you know, why it became. . . .

KA:

Yeah.

SM:

And, and I'd love to look at that. You said here, and I'm gonna quote you. A period of disgust, sometimes so intense and visceral that entire generations sometimes lose the skill to make them. That is a very intense way you said. . .

KA:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . of saying why, you know, people just went off gelatin, but they really did, you know, whether it was in the period of the Renaissance, whether it was the period of the mid-19th century, uh, mid, uh, or whether it was at the end of the, the 20th century, why are people coming, you know, getting so kind of disgusted by, uh, jello?

KA:

Well, I think this is a major thesis of the book, is that periods that are very science forward, the, the trust in, in, um, inventions and creativity and bright colors and what I would call froo-froo meaning. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

. . . overly excessively, you know, uh, decorated things. They tend to like jello. You think. . . to think of mid-20th century America, um, I think of the, uh, Victorian era, think of the late Middle Ages in Renaissance. Totally. Also, it's a very scientific forward, uh, period, is that those tend to, uh, appreciate things that are artificial, meaning artifice is added to the food, and it becomes something valued on the table. And when you do that a lot, I think like any style, it just kind of runs its course. And then people say, we don't want this anymore. But it's also because period, those are usually followed by periods that are far more in true natural food and whole foods and ethically sustainable. All, all those things come in. So, if you look at the late sixties, early seventies, jello drops precipitously in, in fashion because people don't want the artificial colors and flavors of the Jello brand. Um, the same thing happens in the early 20th century in the era of Kellogg when, um, you know, granola comes in fashion and people, people don't want bright, colorful jellos. And I would say the, this is, this was a little, little trickier, but the early 17th century, for the same reasons that the Baroque becomes this heavily, intensely emotional, direct naturalistic period, gelatin goes outta fashion also, um, as seen as it's, it's associated with the period of mannerism that is very ornate, very hard to understand.

[Laughter]

Very, um, intellectualized. In a, in a weird way, jello is very much technologically, um, expressive. . .

[Laughter]

. . . in a way that, that for people who want natural, ordinary food, jello is. . . . They forget how to make it entirely. They go, they go through periods where it just, it, um, goes out of restaurant me. . . menus. It goes out of cookbooks. People literally stop liking it, and they look at it with horror and those other periods.

SM:

I guess that's the period as well. If you look at, uh, you know, the, the vegan period of the 1960s and early seventies. . .

KA:

Sure.

SM:

. . . which was a big. . . . That's when they began to look at jello and went, well, we'll give it to the kids, but we won't give it to us.

KA:

That's right. Well, it, it actually becomes the Jello company panicked, basically. And they said, we need to rebrand this and remarket it. Let's make Jello pudding by, you know, Bill Cosby, uh, promoting it. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

. . . and, uh, and let's sell it to children. And, and of course the wine has gone out of it, and the fancy decorations have gone out. And it, and it then. . . . Once a food is infantalized as happens to sugar, also candy. . .

SM:

Yes.

KA:

. . . you've never served that in a restaurant. You never put a recipe in a cookbook for that. . .

[Laughter]

. . . because it's, it's just déclassé. And I think, I think, you know, once, and this happens to all food. Once. . . if something is elite and suddenly the masses get access to it, and they can do it easily, as of course happened with instant jello, then it's of no interest to, to, to fashionable people.

SM:

I also think, um, that it's also one of those things that kids can make themselves. I remember making myself with my parents, and I wouldn't, you know, put together a whole block of jelly. Uh, I still remember that little square block, and you'd pull it out and put it in a bowl and pour water on it and leave it. And immediately, or within a few minutes, it would become this block. And I would then take that thing into the kitchen, into the living room and sit eating it, watching whatever show I was watching and eat this jelly. And I think that part of it was probably an important part. Do you think that's, uh, I mean, is that true of me? I mean, is it true of everyone?

KA:

Well, it was the fact that, that any housewife without any skills whatsoever could make it and please their family. And it's foolproof. And I think the companies did that intentionally. They made it, they, they told everyone this is, this was once something very elite and fancy. It was only served in restaurants, but now it's democratized and now everyone has access to it and even kids can make it. And that's, you know, that's a, a selling point. But what it does is it really de-skills the people who, who would maybe have made it from scratch, you know, and use, done the bones. And it's not really difficult. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

. . . it just takes a long time. You just put the bones out, you leave them for 12 hours, and then you come back and strain it. It's not a big deal.

SM:

Oh my God. Well, uh, let's go onto some of the periods, uh, where it has become popular. Um, for me, I think the next period, and it's, it's a period that I always think of as, uh, you know, the, I think of it as, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Well, it's, it was so much the period of, of Jello, uh, and that's Victorian times. Cause that's, when I think of it coming up to the, up to the front, and it was, you know, very popular, um, is first of all, is that true?

KA:

This is true. And it was a way to show off the chef's skills. And, um, because food was generally presented on the table, especially if you're doing a banquet or you're some official, you know, dinner or State function, a jello was so elaborate that it made people gasp and enjoy, you know, and, and that's a period in general that likes a lot of decoration, a lot of bright colors, a lot of things. And they didn't mind that it was, you know, that there was arsenic in the candy or copper. . .

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

. . . you know, to make things green. It didn't bother them. Science is fine. We trust it. And literally, you know, Britain didn't have, you know, food safety laws that ban those things for a long time. And they, they just trusted that this was all gonna be good for you. And, um, and put it in the food to make it, make it bright and colorful. And in fact, it gets to a point, the, the person who I'd like to look at is Jules Harder, who was a, uh, French chef who came to, uh, New York and then eventually was hired in San Francisco at the, I think, it's the Palace Hotel, um, in which, and there's a portrait of him, which has got this enormous, he's got, you know, mutton chops, and he's got this enormous. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

. . . um, big jello with a lobster mounted on top and a knife going through it. And this is how he wanted to be remembered, as with, with an aspic, uh, presumably this lobster in it as well, that that was the height of culinary fashion. Now, when you get to the Edwardian period, then people that, that fashion had run its course, but also people wanted food that was natural and whole and healthy. And they were looking at slim figures and their hair goes down and their, you know, waistlines get looser. They're not wearing bustles anymore. And women start to smoke. And I think that that is, you know, in general, a, a change of attitude toward food that reflects much broader cultural values and a rejection of Victorian fussiness and formality and the time spent in a kitchen, which, you know, to make one of those, those, uh, great pièce montée takes hours and hours.

SM:

So, when you move out of the Victorian period, you then next, you next move in, I guess to the 1950s, 1940s, 1950s. And there we get jello kind of coming in from, I don't know where actually, because it's coming out of, I mean, people are looking at 19th century cookbooks, but they're not really following them, I don't think, uh, unless they're talking about Mrs. Beeton and all of that.

KA:

Yeah.

SM:

Where, where is it coming from?

KA:

So, this was the, the company, the Jello, J E L L dash O Company, did brilliant marketing. They, um, gave away molds when people got off the boat at Ellis Island and said, this is American food.

SM:

Really?

KA:

You really ought to learn how to make jello to be, to fit in as an American.

SM:

I did not know this.

KA:

Advertised, uh, everywhere in subway cars and, you know, billboards everywhere they could. And their mark, their marketing worked because they gave away free packets of jello and said, you know, come back. And, uh, they gave away cookbooks, they gave away everything. Ss. . . and this was a period, of course, when people trusted science, they didn't mind that there were artificial colors. Everyone, you know, just did that. And so, I think jello fit that whole period, fit the aesthetic. And most importantly is that people. . . . Picture a suburban housewife who wants to make her family happy and serve something, but really doesn't wanna slip up.

[Laughter]

Doesn't wanna mess up and be, you know, she kind of gets her, her, you know, value from the appreciation of her family. Well, this is foolproof, and this is, this is literally, you just mix the packets together, follow the directions, and voila, you have something beautiful looking. And it doesn't matter that it's artificial lime flavoring. And if you throw some cottage cheese in there, or some hotdogs or SpaghettiOs or, you know, that was, they took that seriously. Um, and I have to say, I've tried some of these, some of them are heinous.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

They're just, just as bad as food could possibly be. But if you put good ingredients in, you're gonna get something good out. So, so a lot of these things sort of on a dare is that I, someone would say, well, I didn't, why don't you make this. And I would say, okay, well what if I'd used really good ingredients and if I used real lime juice and added some vodka and added some, you know, really interesting, you know, inclusions in the, you know, uh, good mortadella or some, I don't know, whatever it could be that I had lying around that was really good. You put good ingredients in, you're gonna get good things out at the other side. Um, and that's, that's been my mantra for a while.

SM:

Well, I do say when I go and look at some of the kind of 1950s, early 1960s cookbooks, some of the aspic, excuse me, some of the aspic covered, uh, things that, uh, don't strike me as that bad. You know, they, they strike me as something. . . . Yes. You see the, you know, whatever the wedding cake covered in aspic, I'm not suggesting anyone do that.

KA:

[Laughter]

SM:

But you see something that, uh, I think looks like it could be really good, uh, even if you're not getting, you know, the greatest ingredients, the, the kind of, the star of it looks like it could be really good. And do you think that is the case?

KA:

Well, people don't eat things that taste terrible.

[Laughter]

I mean, they're, you know, someone likes something. If it sells then it's got an audience. But some of these things actually are very nice. Perfection salad is actually perfectly lovely. It's, it was a fashionable, um, dish, but it's basically a salad put. . . set in a jello. And. . .

SM:

So, it's a, uh, it's a whole salad in jello?

KA:

Yeah. Set in jello. So, it’s crunchy and it's chewy and you serve it with dressing and it's, it's not bad at all. Um, it's, you know, and I think it, it's even better if you, you know, use a nice Pinot Grigio. . .

[Laughter]

. . . and you, you know, and make an interesting dressing and great vegetables. What's not to like about it?

SM:

That's fantastic. I have never seen that. And I'm gonna go and have, have a look. Have you got it on your Facebook page?

KA:

I probably do. There's actually a whole book about this by Laura Shapiro called Perfection Salad, which is, which is basically about women in, uh, mid-20th century and how they're manipulated by the industry to make things that they think are gonna give them, you know, value and they're, so, but it's, it's a great book and she's a great historian.

SM:

Um, let's move into our own ish sort of era, um, the 20th century and 21st century. Um, I guess now we're in one of those disgusted periods.

KA:

Yes.

SM:

That's me doing a hand signal, which is no good to anyone, but there you go. Um, and I wonder where, where you think we're going to go now with this food? Um, are we gonna go into a gelatin friendly era?

[Laughter]

KA:

Well. . .

SM:

What's that gonna look like?

KA:

Yeah, let me, let me trace out what has happened in our lifetimes. Apparently we're. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KA:

. . . both the same age.

[Laughter]

So, so when I was young, my mom, um, got it in her head that they were, both my parents were, were on Weight Watchers and they got it in their head that they would make this dessert, which was flavored with Saccharin. And it made several layers. And she'd put this in a parfait glass. And this was dessert cuz it had practically no calories. It was vile, absolutely heinous. And um, you know, I tried to figure out a way not to eat this. And I've told my mother, I figured out where gelatin came from. That it's calves feet and I won't eat that. That's too disgusting.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

And she was like, ok, you don't have to eat this, but think about that. You know, the, her growing up in the fifth, you know, or starting a household in the fifties, jello was a perfectly acceptable socially and aesthetically uh, kind of food to serve. When I was growing up, the aesthetic was natural and, um, you know, local and when sustainable wasn't there yet, but, but those kind of values.

SM:

Yeah.

KA:

Um, and people wanted food that was not artificially flavored and colored and overly sweetened or anything like that. So, so that whole generation, I would say really just looked down upon Jello and it became food for children. But serious people didn't take jello, you know, ser. . . seriously at all. Gastronomically, certainly not. And that's really lasted up into the past 20 years. Um, yeah, when, you know, if you think of, I like to call the past 20 years the era of hipster pickles and. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

. . . halloumi and, you know, anything local and do it yourself and homemade. And I'm part of that. I'm totally, you know, the cookbooks that I've written are totally part of that. And what I see happening is now people are beginning to trust science in their food again. Think of Impossible Burgers. Think of um, drinks like the White Claw. .

[Laughter]

. . . which is just, who knows what it is, where it comes from. But people like those things and they're beginning to say, industry will solve problems and these foods are, are okay for us to eat. And I think this positive attitude towards science, which is going to, you know, affect our attitude toward the environment, toward climate change, all sorts of things will, will rub off on our food. And that jello is gonna have a revival in a way that is not just kitsch value. You know, let's, let's make this fifties era recipe cuz it looks so horrible and we'll laugh at it and we'll go ha ha ha eat it. But, but that they will start to use real ingredients. They'll start to use jello in context that they haven't before and that it will be a new era that just rethinks it and doesn't depend on a big mold. And, you know, something that comes out and it's jig, big jiggly loose thing. They'll start putting it in context that are more interesting use. Use interesting, uh, alcohol cuz gelatin has almost always had alcohol in it until recently. And great ingredients. And, well, let me give you an example. So yesterday I was just messing around in the kitchen and I had. . .

SM:

Mm-hmm.

KA:

. . . um, a loaf of, uh, shokupan, that light fluffy Japanese bread. And I had some paté, which was unopened and I thought, let me put this on there. That sounds like a nice combination. And I happened to have had some homemade sauerkraut and put that on top of it. And then I thought this could use jello. And I took a bottle of, um, good Madeira. I was actually just in Madeira a, a few months ago. And, um, added gelatin, poured it on top of the sandwich and let it set. So, all the ingredients kind of got glued together with it, put the other side on, and it was a lot like if you were having a paté on a cracker with a glass of Madeira next to it, which is perfectly wonderful combination. . .

SM:

Yes, it is.

KA:

. . . but . . . with a crunch in it. That was kind of reminded me of a bánh mì in a way cuz it was, you know, the pickly, um, you know, aspic to that. And that's something that I don't think anyone would ever think of doing. . .

[Laughter]

. . . is adding jello to a sandwich. But it works. And I think that that kind of inventiveness in the kitchen, the, the experimentation which I've just been doing cuz I'm, you know, I, I wanted to have fun in the kitchen, um, that's gonna become popular again and people are gonna stop looking at traditional dishes and stop saying, this is the proper way you make a Fettuccini Alfredo, and don't you tell me otherwise. Those people are getting sick of those arguments and I think they're getting sick of being told what is the correct way to do every single dish. And only I'm allowed to tell you that because I, it's my background. Now, people are saying, well, forget it then. I'm gonna make something up that no one has authority over that no one can tell me I'm doing the wrong way and it will be totally mine and I will have fun with it. Um, and combine things in ways that no one has before. And that's, and I think we're right for, for a period gastronomically where we're the, the whole authenticity thing I think has just gotten so tiresome that people are, people want something completely new that they've never heard of before.

SM:

I, I totally agree. And, um, I wanna look at some of the companies who have come up, you know, and we'll talk about, um, I mean you may, um, Bompas & Parr, uh, we said when we chatted before you thought they were, you know, they're one of the, you know, new companies or relatively new companies who've come out using, uh, jelly or jello and they're putting it into probably more of what, uh, you know, was done in the 19th century and they're making something very large and, you know, colorful and bright. Um, but they're one type of couple. Uh, but are there, you know, as well as them, are there other people who are making jellos or jellies in, in forms that they want?

KA:

Yeah, well, Bompas & Parr, I think, are the vanguard. They, they really started this before anyone. They're not very well known in the United States. Um, I had a chance to meet them at the Oxford Symposium. They did a whole, uh, tableau of the City of London on fire in 1666, which was magnificent, um, in its own way. And they were still starting out. I think this was a long time ago. Um, but the Jello itself was unremarkable.

[Laughter]

I think that, you know, the flavor was there. It was, it was okay. Um, and I think that they're, they've gotten very good at doing giant things and big molds and stuff. But I, I would say that that's really very much a revival of what Carême was doing of the kind of gelatin. . .

SM:

Yeah.

KA:

. . . that is kind of passed. What I think is gonna happen is the restaurants are gonna start playing around with it, putting it in context that people don't know of. In fact, there was a, an article in, in, uh, Food and Wine, uh, that's six months ago that talked about, uh, restaurants that are now featuring jello and not tongue in cheek. They're, they're not doing it as a joke. Though some restaurants do that. There’s a restaurant in, um, Salt Lake City. Mormons love Jello.

[Laughter]

That's just one of the things.

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

And they and the state of Utah embraced it and just said, we are the highest consumers of Jello in the nation. Uh, Iowa challenged them briefly.

[Laughter]

Then, then they came back and said, we're, we're not losing our title.

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

And this restaurant in downtown, uh, Salt Lake City served jello was, was actually a really great restaurant. Um, I can't remember the name, but, and in any case that's, that was ironic. Um, I think people are gonna start serving je. . . jello in earnest. They're, they're gonna think I can get great flavors in this form that is totally malleable, that is that that will accept any flavoring whatsoever that you add in except raw pineapple, which will prevent it from setting. And you can. . . . I think it's a whole unexplored kind of realm of food that we have lost the taste for because of all those dreadful 1950s, sixties era, you know, uh, SpaghettiOs in in jello concoctions.

[Laughter]

SM:

Um, I think that's a great place to finish, uh, the kind of, I want to say, uh, serious conversation, but you've actually made it very fun and I, I really thank you a huge amount for doing that.

BREAK MUSIC

SM:

Hi everybody, this is Simon Majumdar, the creator and host of the Eat My Globe food history podcast. Now, those of you have been listening to the podcast since we began over two years ago – nearly 50 episodes so far – will know that we have never sought out sponsorship for the podcast. It’s very much been a labor of love. However, along the way, a large number of people have approached us suggesting they would like to support the podcast. And so, we have opened up a page on Patreon dot com to allow those of you who listen regularly to do just that. Any support we will get will allow us to purchase research materials, buy ingredients for recipes, and maybe, when we can get out and about, to bring you some very special in-the-field reporting. But, and this is really important. This is not just a one-way street. For varying levels of membership of our Patreon club, there will be access to fantastic Eat My Globe swag, including that incredible chopping board so many of you have written to me about, recipes based on historical periods about which we chat each week, video shout outs, signed pictures, and even along the way, some very special episodes just for members. So, if you’ve enjoyed the episodes of Eat My Globe you’ve listened to so far, and would like us to make many more into the future, do head over to www dot Patreon dot com slash Eat My Globe and consider taking out a membership. Any support will be much appreciated. Remember, that’s www dot Patreon dot com slash Eat My Globe. So, thank you very much, and keep listening.

Why don't we have some of our fun questions for Ken, as it were. Um, and see how we can get with those. Um, so if, if Ken was a meal, what would it be?

KA:

I think I would have to be a noodle soup.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

Not just, not just because I wrote a book on this, but because it is one of those things that is so versatile. It's great for breakfast. I had it this morning, in fact. And it's, um, you know, when you make the noodles yourself and you have stock that you've made, I keep it in the freezer usually, um, and add fresh vegetables. It's not a quick breakfast, but it is the most satisfying, um, comforting food that I can think of. Um, and, and it's versatile and it goes in any direction you wanna take it. It can be savory, it can be you. . . . There's sweet noodle soups that are great. It can be hot or cold. So, I like to think that's kind of what my personality is like. I can go in any.

SM:

I, yeah, I think that's a fantastic idea. And, uh, again, we'll come onto your Facebook in a, in a short while, but if people go and watch it, it is, uh, funny and clever and what you do with food is just remarkable. Um, now if you could go to any meal during history or a meal at a particular point in history, uh, what would it be?

KA:

I would have to go to see Bartolomeo Scappi in the kitchen.

SM:

Oh, yes.

KA:

Uh, he was the author, his works are called Opera, which just means works published in 1570 in Italy. And he was the, um, private personal chef to Pope Pius V. And I always wondered, how did this happen? Pius V was a saint, was ascetic, you know, did he prepare toast for him? And that was it. It seems like, like you get someone with the greatest talent and they have to serve someone who doesn't like to eat. But he certainly served the Papal Court. And his cookbook is the most detailed, um, offers many, many options. Gives you shopping hints. Is illustrated, you know, all the equipment he uses is there. And I think it's the best cookbook ever in, um, in any language, in any time. And I wanna see him in action.

[Laughter]

I wanna, I wanna, uh, you know, be there in the kitchen with him and then, and then have a meal, um, just to see how he, how he put all these things together.

SM:

And, and wasn't it, uh, I think, I mean, you mentioned it before we started chatting on here that it was a thousand pages long or plus, so there was a lot.

[Cross talk]

KA:

It really teaches you how to cook. I mean, you can read that book and learn how to do anything.

SM:

Uh, well that's a, that's definitely a fantastic one. And as I say, I've studied it a lot, not the way that you have, uh, but it is something that I would love to study again and to be there. So, I definitely agree with that. Okay. If you could choose any great invention in history, uh, what would it be? And so, I always mentioned on here, you know, people come up with a fire and blah, blah blah. And uh, and we don't want that. So just come up with something fun.

[Laughter]

KA:

Well, I was about to say fermentation, but fermentation is not an invention, it's a discovery. It happens on its own. You crush grapes, they turn into wine by themselves. But I would say distillation is the one that is the greatest invention. There's a lot of discussion and argument about when and where it was, um, invented. Is this guy Zosimos in the first or second century Alexandria who seems to be talking about something like that, but it's very obscure, um, language and who knows what he was really talking about. The medieval Muslim world definitely had, um, the technology. They invent the alembic.

SM:

Yeah.

KA:

Um, but it's not really until you get some medieval Italy and Spain that you have a, a, a very exact description of, um, the distilling wine into alcohol. And what they were doing is kind of fascinating to me is wine in nutritional theory of the, from the ancient times all the way up until the Renaissance was considered to be an analog to blood and the most nutritious liquid you could have, it restores your blood. And for people who don't have strong digestive systems, they thought, let's create something that didn't need digestion that would already be in refined form. And so, they take alcohol or aqua vitae, water of life, that's not a joke. They took that very seriously and they thought, you know, this will be medicine that will be nourishing to people and won't tax their systems and required digestion. So, and you know, we, we often look at people like, you know, prohibition era and think, haha, yeah, they're taking bourbon for their, for medicine, medicinal purposes.

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

But they were absolutely serious about that. Alcohol really was medicine. And before the invention of, you know, salvarsan and, and modern chemical-based drugs, alcohol was about as good as it got. Really.

SM:

I think that's a great answer. Um, and you give it such a, you don't just talk about it as distillation, but you go through all the history, which I just love, uh, talking to you. Um, I think those are great answers. Um, and finally, before we get to the end, uh, let's give out, you know, your Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, uh, I dunno if you're on TikTok, but if you are, uh, we could go onto all of it, but, uh, I know I know you from Facebook, so why don't we talk about all of those?

KA:

Yeah, well I tried TikTok. I have one posting.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

KA:

And I can't figure it out honestly. And all I can see there is ladies dancing and I'm just like, I don't wanna see that. Um, but I am on Facebook, even though my kids say it's only for old people. I think it's, it's fine. I like the way it works. I have the most followers, got the most interest, um, and discussions there. I run a couple of different groups. I'm an administrator for the Oxford Symposium and also The Cult of Pre-Pasteurian Food Preservation, which is a pickling site. And, um, and I just started another one called, All Food No Rules.

[Laughter]

Which, which means post whatever you want. No one can tell you, you, you're doing this wrong. That's. . . . It's fun and a lot of nice people on there. So, I'm a Facebook person, but I like Instagram too. Just find me under my name. Um, and I post pretty much every day. Lately, you will see me making spoons.

SM:

Yes.

KA:

This, this has been my project for the fall.

[Laughter]

Um, I'm hoping to write a book about how the, um, food and vessels – I have a pottery studio right beneath where I'm sitting right now – and, um, and wood will go together aesthetically cuz sometimes high-end restaurants do this. They'll design dishes to go with the food. But it's all mostly standard dishes. Standard cutlery.

SM:

Yes.

KA:

And I don't see why it has to be. Why, why can't you make things that really go together aesthetically. So, this is, I'm gonna hope to get my next book outta this.

SM:

Well, that's fantastic. Um, Ken, I want to say a huge, huge thank you.

KA:

Loads of fun.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Do make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www dot Eat My Globe dot com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

And, if you like what you hear, please don’t forget to subscribe, recommend us to your family and friends and give us a good rating on your favorite podcast provider. That really makes a difference.

Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE, a podcast about things you didn’t know you didn’t know about food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

[Pa pa pa pa pa sound]

Also, a huge thank you to Sybil Villanueva for her help with research and the preparations of the transcripts for this episode, which can be found on the website.