Eat My Globe Podcast

Interview with Journalist & Award-Winning Writer

Melissa Thompson

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

Hi everybody and welcome to a brand-new episode of Eat My Globe, a podcast that tells you things you didn't know you didn't know about food. And on today's very special episode, we're looking at the patchwork of experiences that go together to form the island that is Jamaica in the hands of one of its finest exponents, Melissa Thompson. Melissa's background has taken her from Dorsett, I believe, in England, being born to a Jamaican father and, I think, a Maltese mother, through being a journalist, to forming her own pop-up restaurant, cooking I believe Japanese food, which is very exciting to me, to now being one of the finest food writers in the UK. A winner of the Guild of Food Writers Award in 2021 and now delivering the wonderful work and subject of today's chat, “Motherland.” So, Eat My Globe listeners, please welcome, Melissa Thompson.

Melissa Thompson (“MT”):

Thank you very much, Simon. That is quite the introduction.

SM:

[Laughter]

Well, I like to do a, a nice introduction. So, Melissa Thompson, I think with a lot of people in the US, but a lot of people in the UK as well, you know, we didn't know much about Jamaica, you know, we don't know about its history. So, this podcast is gonna be talking about it. I know when I went there, I absolutely loved it, you know. So, what I want to do to you is talk about this fascinating and flavor-filled island on the globe, Jamaica. So, before we start, let's talk a bit about yourself and, and your magnificent book. Perhaps you could tell us about who you are and why this subject is so special to you.

MT:

So, imagine, as you said, I am a food writer primarily, and I also, you know, I cook a lot. I do, I work with a barbecue, a barbecue company, Weber. I do a lot of barbecue stuff, kind of grilling and, and then other bits. Sort of bits on radio and just, it's a bit of a mixed bag. I come from a journalistic background. I, I started on my local paper back in Dorsett, the Dorsett Echo, and then kinda worked my way up to national newspapers to interviews. And then, yeah, the food kinda started through. I was always cooking, but then the food came through a supper club. As you said, my sister-in-law, sister-in-law is Japanese and introduced me to Kaarage chicken and I would make it all the time and then eventually kind of slice to the supper club bit on a whim really. And that kind of grew. And then I ended up doing kind of popups and taking over different spaces. And, you know, I always cook lots of different food. I come from a background, my parents, cause they're both in different places and my dad was in the Royal Navy, so he would cook, like, travel around the world and then kinda cook food from different places. And so, you know, growing up I was always exposed to lots of different cuisines. And, and then like Japanese. . . . So Jamaican food was always kind of quite a big part of that. And then when I started cooking for myself, for my friends, I cook a lot of Jamaican food and then I found myself cooking more Jamaican foods as I got older. And then. . . and then I think for me it was almost just a kind of, I'm a curious person anyway, especially being a journalist. And I was always curious as to the origins of the food that I loved, but I never really kinda considered their origins. And sometimes the origin stories of different foods become known. Like, you know, I know that a tarte tartin happened by accident, right, in a French kitchen, apparently, and, but I didn't know why for instance ackee and saltfish, why those two quite disparate things ends up on a plate and working so well together. Or the history of oxtail or, like, you know, why is there this traditional curry in, in Jamaica? And even down to the story of jerk, right? Because jerk is probably one of Jamaica's most famous exports and what are the origins? And actually, the more I found out, the more I wanted to know and the more that you could just see there is this kind of, like, direct correlation between the people, the circumstances and the massive movement that was going on kinda in there in the, sort of, you know, like starting in the 16th century, but 17th century, 18th century and 19th century especially. And kinda all these ingredients kind of like, you know, swapping borders and these people that were swapping borders either through their own free will or being, kinda, cause they were being enslaved and stolen from different countries. And that's where it came out really. I'm quite a nosy person when it comes to food.

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

I love learning about stories and people and when you have food, it's that kind of common thread winding through all of it. For me, it's just fascinating.

SM:

Before we go on, I have to just admit another link. When I was in publishing in the UK many, many moons ago, we used to publish all the Weber cookbooks. I just mentioned that as well.

MT:

Wow. Amazing.

SM:

Yeah, we, and we used to go to the Weber University in Chicago and all of that stuff. So, I mean that's just another thing that came out.

MT:

Very cool.

SM:

We used to publish for Denmark, we used to publish for all these different countries around Europe as well as for the UK. So, I just mentioned that came in and we haven't published, I mean MQP has unfortunately gone bust, but we used to publish all the books for them so that. . .

MT:

Very cool.

SM:

. . . was very fascinating. Anyway, that's just a thing that's going on here. So perhaps let’s, let's go on to this and before we go on, I note. . . I read all the way through your amazing, amazing book, but just so people can understand, you do mention the Windrush generation and your, and your grandfather I think was part of that who came over just because people in the UK may not know it but people in the US won't know it really. Perhaps you could just talk to us about what the Windrush generation is because that's fascinating to me. And really my father came over in a sort of thing from India as well, so I'd just love to know about that.

MT:

Yeah, so, so the Windrush, it was actually both my parents, both my dad's parents, his mom and his dad who came to the UK. They were invited by the government kinda in this postwar effort to rebuild and being part of the Empire, the Empire being part of the commonwealth, were invited. It was called the Windrush because it was actually the first boat to make that trip was called the HMS Windrush. And so, this was in the fifties. The first trip was, when was it? It was the, I wanna say ‘52 or what? Yeah, basically it was in the kind of the early fifties, the first trip Windrush was the first trip that Windrush made. And so, people were brought in to do different, to do different jobs. And it’s, and it’s quite funny because you hear from people now and unfortunately my grandparents died before I, you know, even thought to have these conversations with them. But cause the people were invited to help, they kinda were expecting quite a warm welcome and a lot of them didn't have a very warm welcome, right? And it's the classic is people having signs in their, in their sort of white people, white British people having signs in their, in their like you know with BnBs and things like that, having signs in there saying no Blacks, no dogs and no Irish or no Blacks, no Irish and no dogs. And so, then you had pockets in the UK of where people could get Black people, Jamaicans could get, could get lodging. It was often really extortion for not very nice conditions. And so, you have pockets, like you know Brixton being the best known. And so, the generation was over that period of years where people were kind of invited over here. My parents came over I think in ‘56. My dad was born in ‘55 and my dad stayed in Jamaica, which again is quite a common thing. So, his parents came over to kind of establish themselves and then my dad came over when he was nine and, you know, got a massive shock to the system and had his parents who were strangers to him. So, obviously, they didn't see each other over that time. He had new siblings who were strangers to him. My parents had tried to, so my grandparents had tried to almost become more entrenched in British society. And so, my dad came over with quite a strong Jamaican accent. He was the first Black child at his school and so faced a lot of racism. And so, it’s. . . and then even more recently there's been a scandal, the wish, Windrush scandal with the current conservative government and people being, because when people came as children they just kind of came and they worked and they paid taxes. But then because say some of them didn't kind of become like British residents and went through no fault of their own and, you know, some people got deported and some people went back to Jamaica, well you say went back, went back to Jamaica, they hadn't been since they were children. This place was fairly alien. And it's just been absolutely outrageous and kind of really exposes a lot of the, kinda deep, deep-seated, deep-rooted issues that Britain still faces with racism.

SM:

No, absolutely. And I know that the way you talk about it is the way that my father who was married, he was married to a, you know, a woman from Wales, so it's a very separate, you know, way of looking at it. But he had the same. He was going, How could you do, you know, look at a country that had nearly a billion people there and discover it being a British thing and they brought them over to this country. So it. . . .

[Cross talk]

MT:

And some of the narrative I think. . . . Yeah, well yeah, totally. And a lot of the narratives are very similar, kinda, you know, and I think that that definitely happened with the Empire. . . British Empire in India and it's the language used by the British about like these people are like sort of savages and we are here to civilize them. And then you look at the actions of the British and how just savage they were in their treatment and, and it's just, it’s, you know, really, I guess we'd almost call it, what would you call it? Not what is it almost like gaslighting, you're kind of. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . you’re sort of transferring your own issue onto other people, calling them savages. And a lot of these places were just already quite established and worked. They worked perfectly fine, and yet the British came along and just kind of unleashed just violence and, and, you know, caused issues that are still, that still continue today.

SM:

No, absolutely. And one of the things I wanted to talk about with that is how this impacted your, your food. Because for me, Indian food is not just, you know, going there because it's part of my history. It's, it’s going there because it's part of my history if that means sense and these, you know, the foods that I make from there. And I look at the British Indian restaurant food and I look at the actual Indian food and that makes me very kind of confident there. And when I go there I feel more in tune with it. How does it make you feel when you go to Jamaica? Do people look at you in a different way? Do you. . . when you go in to cook the food? Does that come out as that? Because I want to know how you are treated in Jamaica really as well.

MT:

I think. . . I have, you know, when I go to Jamaica I have just a really nice time. I think, I think. . . . It's one of those places that, you know, when you, sometimes when you go and I have this and I have it even. . . . So, like my parents, when they say, Melissa is going to Jamaican and their parents go through their friends, go and offer advice, even people who are Jamaican themselves and be careful. Even one of my mum's friends told. . .  said to her to pass onto me to not speak to anyone cause they'd know I was British for my accent. It's like what? You know, and it's completely fine. And again, I think coming back to food, I think food helps kind of foster those. . . while I build those kind of connections cause you can just talk about food, what, what's gone into there, how have you done that? And I think people love talking about food. When you work in food it's just nice to have a conversation. It's nice to, you know, I have it if I'm cooking food and someone's genuinely interested in what you've done cause you put your heart into this dish, you know. . .

SM:

Yes.

MT:

. . . or what you do, especially you're doing it day in, day out and someone appreciates it. It's really nice. What I found about the food, you know food that I have here, cause I think I talk in the book about how food has always been used as a way to anchor yourself to somewhere that you've been removed from. And obviously I was born in the UK, and so, but the Jamaican food when I went to Jamaica was almost an anchor for me back home. Kinda like the nostalgia I felt was almost nostalgia for Britain eating the food. Cause that's where I first experienced it. And also, I remember thinking, blimey, like, you know, the Jamaicans in the UK have done, have done the food justice cuz it was, it was so obviously it's familiar but you kinda expect I think where you have this kind of like, British, British Indian cuisine where, so people doing. . . . And I remember being part of a discussion with [Inaudible] and someone else whose name I've forgotten and he. . . and Cyrus was talking about when he opened his first restaurants in the UK, people wouldn't go because he was cooking dinner Indian dishes from India. And people were like, where is [inaudible] it's all like chicken tikka masala like where is this?

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

And so first it was almost like oh my gosh, no one's gonna come and eat my food. And there hasn't really been that fusion with, with Jamaican food. There's been attempts at it but because they're always so kind of like substandard compared to the real deal, they've never really become part of the Jamaican British repertoire. Jamaican food that you have in England is Jamaican food. There might be slight substitutions to it because I don’t know, like pimento in the UK is never gonna be as fragrant and sort of. . .

SM:

I remember.

MT:

. . . nuanced as it is in Jamaica. But largely the Jamaican food that you have here. And also, you know, like, if you are cooking Jamaican food and your customer base is Jamaican, they do not suffer fools badly. Your food has to be good.

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

Otherwise, you'll go out of business really quickly.

SM:

Well let's, let’s talk about how the food came together because, you know, that you go through all the different people who come in to make that amazing community that you get in Jamaica. And I know, you know, when I went there, we shared the food there. It was amazing. Now let's go through, because you do mention it. I'm guessing from the community that you have there, the Redware people, kind of the earliest people there, there's probably not much of their cuisine that exists. So, you're not getting much of that I'm guessing unless it's gone on to the Taino and all of those people.

MT:

Yeah, so, so, the, the. . .  I mean how the. . . . So the, the Redware column became assimilated into the Taino people and sort of, a lot of archeologists don't know if that was done by force or if it was just a gradual kind of assimilation. I think it is believed that is more like a gradual assimilation. So, there isn't very much known about them. We know that they had, they generally made their camps near, near water and so that seafood was kind of part of the diet but it's really the Taino that we know because they were the first people, the first to have European contact and it was the Europeans who recorded what they saw. So that's how, that’s how we know and we know their use of cassava and how important cassava was to the Taino, the kind of who are regarded as indigenous Jamaicans and they cultivated like mace and sweet potato and, and things like that.

SM:

And what did they. . . So, let's talk about some of those dishes because I'm guessing some of those have passed through even to the future. . . you know, to the present now. Let's talk about cassava and sweet potato. And these are things that people might know, you know, a little bit in the US a little bit. Sweet potato probably even more. But tell us about how they use them.

MT:

So, I mean I guess the most famous is the cassava and. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . so for me I, I dedicated a lot of space in the book to cassava because cassava. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . I think wonderful and it was very important and there are some of the earliest notes. So, there was a Spanish guy who wrote about these cassava flat bread that the Taino made and then Hans Sloane, who may not be known to US audiences, but he was a, a, like a botanist and he was a position, he was a position to the first British, a governor of Jamaica and went over there for a couple of years and he did this, these two massive volumes where he recorded everything that he found there. So, it was fascinating kind of all the things that were brought there. And obviously the Spanish had brought loads of. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . plants. I mean they brought sugar cane. They brought, which obviously sugar came where it become really important. And they brought banana. They brought plantain. They brought loads of different things. They brought a lot of animals, a lot of livestock. So, they brought goats and they brought pigs and pigs of those pigs. A lot of the animals they brought would end up becoming wild and those pigs proved very important later on with the, kind of, with, with the emergence of jerk. But, but, but cassava. . . . These records and they write about this preparation of cassava where you grate the cassava, you squeeze the liquid out of it and then you kind of toast it over a, over like a sort of a paddle thing to make over fire and it makes bread cuz like cassava and you know, and known as manioc and known as yucca. . .

SM:

Yep.

MT:

. . . elsewhere. So American audiences might know, maybe know better as, better as yucca. And then it kind of melts together without any, kind of, you know, any egg or any kind of water in there or any kind of binder. And it just makes these cassava, cassava flatbreads. And they were really important to the Taino because they would enable travel because these cassava flatbreads would last properly up to a year. . .

SM:

Oh.

MT:

. . . which is unheard of back in the day before refrigeration. So that enabled them to go in their canoes and they had amazing canoes and kind of travel island to island and trade and discover new kind of new lands. And so, what blows my mind is that you know, you have, you have Bammy and Bammy today are those cassava flat breads.

SM:

Oh okay.

MT:

So, you can draw a direct line from those, from those cassava flat breads to Bammy. And then you have a dish to Bammy will be served maybe most commonly with fried fish, Escovitch fried fish. Escovitch fried fish.

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

I mean I think the idea of frying fish maybe has like a bit of an African influence but then the escovitch is definitely from the Spanish.

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

And escovitch, escabeche in Spanish means like to pickle. And so, you have this kind of like sweetened vinegary kind of like liquor with vegetables in it that you pour over the fried fish, then you got like your fried Bammy on the side that's been soaked in maybe like coconut milk or, or even just in water. . .

SM:

Oh that sounds so good.

MT:

. . . and it's been fried and it's so nice. And then you have the vinegary liquid that soaks into the cassava and you just eat it and it's my goodness. It’s, it’s so tasty. And so, on that, you know, just on that one plate, you've got the influence of, of the, of the Spanish. You have the influence of the Taino, and maybe kind of a bit of the African influence as well. And it is just. . .  so, there are so many dishes like that in Jamaican cuisine where on one plate you have all of these different influences and they just come together to create something absolutely magical.

SM:

Yeah, I have to say part of the reason is the way you describe it is just absolutely fantastic. And I've had Bammy when I was there, but I never made that connection, which is really, I mean it is just fantastic. So, let's talk about, yeah, well you've talked about the Spanish and also the British communities and yeah we talked about sugar plantations and sugar plantations became, you know, the reason in effect why Jamaica kind of carried on in a way. And so, let's talk about the sugar plantations because obviously how they were used in Jamaica, but obviously what they also did exporting. I remember, and in fact I did last season, I wrote my own essay on the history of rum and how they sold the molasses to New England who then sold it around the world, created rum in New England and then sold it around the world. And in fact, rum was almost more important than the Boston Tea Party for the. . .  So, let's talk about sugar cane and then let's talk about some of the other influences that Spanish had and the British had.

MT:

Yeah, sure. So, I mean, so, the island of Barbados was the first within the Caribbean, the first kinda slave society. So. . .

SM:

Yep.

MT:

. . . initially, when the Spanish came under Columbus they were looking for gold. That was it. They were looking for gold and, and, you know, well gold and spices and like things to trade. And, as soon as they saw the Taino, the people, Spanish. . . Columbus' diaries were like they, they're quite timid people and they seem friendly, they would make good servants and I think we'll be able to convert them to Christianity. So, like, right off the bat, that was his intention. And so, then a lot of the Taino because, you know, a very common narrative in the West is that, that these, that the indigenous people died through a lack of immunity to these new diseases that, that they they'd never seen before. And that, that did happen though instances of smallpox and things like that. But actually, the Spanish, it was through their brutality that a lot of the Taino died. Some committed suicide too, like they used [inaudible] to commit suicide because it was so brutal. And, and so, so then, you know, there was a lot of, cause so actually like people, kind of, the Spanish. . . . Like, Jamaica became this backwater that it was almost used to kind of live. . . livestock became overgrown. There was like agriculture almost like a, a supply base for the Spanish’s interest in the area.

SM:

Oh okay. Okay.

MT:

And then you have Barbados under the British and they kind of cottoned on because you had South America, Brazil that was, you know, like producing lots of under the Portuguese and the Dutch and they were producing like a lot of sugar. And sugar was this like really expensive commodity. . .

SM:

Yes.

MT:

. . . white gold. Like Europe couldn't get enough of. [Inaudible] in Europe couldn’t get enough of. And then so the British, even though Barbados was very small by comparison, it was like perfect growing conditions. And so, it became very profitable. And, and that's when the, the chattel slavery from West Africa, like Western Central Africa really ramped up. And so, then when the British took over Jamaica in 1655, immediately, well not immediately, like it was kind of like they knew exactly what they wanted to do with the island. Ramped up. And so, and Jamaica saw more enslaved people arrive on its shores than any other Caribbean island. Not that it end up, it was really populated cause it was also one of the brutal, most brutal. So, a lot of people died, you know, a lot of the enslaved population died very young cause it was just backbreaking work, working for ridiculous hours and very dangerous work as well. And so, then that was when the cultivation of, of sugar really ramped up. And then you also had our other, kind of, like sort of some of the land given over to the livestock and things like that. But it was just an absolute money maker. Cause you had, you know, the only, your only expenditure apart from with the equipment was then, was in people and then, you know, that's why, you know, then you have issues of sexual violence. Cause it was almost like to repopulate from within not having to buy. And so, it's just an absolutely like shameful part of, of the history that funded, you know, I mean, I talk about when I was growing up in Weymouth and whenever we left the county I would go past, drive past this really long wall and it really fascinated me because at some point you had these animals on top of this wall. And obviously kids like animals. And then you had this big archway, it's got a big deer on top and I was so like so transfixed with this. And then when I got older and I ended up working the local paper, I learned that that place that I was so fascinated with, that wall was actually the perimeter of the Drax estate and the Drax family were massive players in the slave trades.

SM:

Oh okay.

MT:

They, they were massive players in Barbados and then they came to Jamaica and, and, the Drax, and the descendant, James Drax, who lives there is now the MP of the area in which I grew up of South Dorsett. And so, kind it all these weird. . .

SM:

Oh.

MT:

. . . yeah, so that's, that’s kind of the importance of, of sugar. Cause it helped fund the industrial revolution in, in Britain and a lot of the, the ports like Liverpool, Bristol and obviously London absolutely flourished through the proceeds of, of slavery. A lot of, but the businesses, I mean there's kind of like big businesses, big insurance companies and, and it was state sanctioned, you know. It wasn't separate. It wasn't this kinda underground thing. It was very much kind of state sanctioned in slavery. The benefit, yeah, the benefit of, of, of few.

SM:

Well, and it, it is now. . . . I mean, I think, and maybe you mentioned this in your book, it's like 90% now is from the African community that's come over there, which is just, I mean, an enormous amount and is, is certainly true in, in Brazil and certainly or certainly in certain areas of Brazil. So, let's, let’s look at those people because, I mean they, first of all, they added a lot to the food obviously, and, but also how they added to the whole community. So, let's look at that. The, you know, the enslaved, you know, African men and women, these represent 19 per. . .

[Cross talk]

. . . 19% of the community, which shows, I mean, just the extraordinary number of people who came over to the community. But this was obviously, you know, one of the most iniquitous tragedies of the time, but it had an impact on the food. So perhaps you could just talk to us about the food side of it and how that even represented their community back home.

MT:

So, you have. . . [Inaudible] I think Simon, one of the craziest things about it for me is that it took me, I think, you know, it took me a while to realize that I was descended from enslaved people because I was, as a kid, I was like my mum was Maltese, my dad was Jamaican and I thought the Jamaican population and [Inaudible] of people but it was only until I was a bit older that I was like, oh my gosh. So, my ancestors were part of this enslavement like and it was just, you know, it's quite wild. And since I've done my DNA and things and found out kind of like how I'm rooted to, to West Africa a bit, there's sort Nigeria mainly, but then other countries along, kind of along the coast and that's kind of pretty extraordinary. And so, there was this massive movement of people, I mean, and also the, you know, people from Africa were like, we owe a lot to Africa's ingenuity in terms of like farming and in terms of, you know, like cultivation. And so. . . so, it wasn’t. . . . People were brought over to work but also they had amazing know-how and I don't think that was accidental, you know, in terms of how to work the land and animal husbandry and things like that. And so, they really knew what they were doing and people had like, had like provision grounds where you would grow stuff like, you know, any kind of yam, cassava, coco yam, lots of different things. And you'd have your plantain, green plantain and so you still have that tradition today of having hard food. So, on the side of your plate you have your hard food or in soups and you have your hard food, kind of like, you know, starchy vegetables that were gonna give you energy and. . .

SM:

Yep.

MT:

. . . you also have the one pot. The one pot. Cuz in also terms of dealing with apple, I think especially in the UK you have all these kind of buzz words. You know have your vegan foods, you have your nose, nose to tail eating.

SM:

Yep.

MT:

And also, just the idea of being resourceful, especially with the climate crisis. And actually, I saw Jamaican, and not just Jamaicans but a lot of these cultures who people haven't necessarily paid that much attention to their food, who’d been doing this sort of thing for years. I joke that, you know, if an alien was to land in the UK, they would and read the literature around vegan food, they would think it would start, it was started by like a white woman in West London like in 2010. And actually, you know, I mean, like you look at India in the tradition of plant-based food and it's like its part, it's so important part of these cultures. And so, in terms of. . . look at oxtail as a one pot dish and just this kinda resourcefulness of turning something that is very, very tough that was kind of almost dismissed by, by the plantation owners and now, I mean oxtail is, is very expensive. It is delicious. That’s one of my most favorite things. And so that's what we have to thank the people for. But then also, I mean a lot of the dishes like Ackee and Saltfish, Ackee is, I think, it's still banned in America. I think sometimes it goes outside.

SM:

You can only get it in, in the US in a can.

MT:

Okay.

SM:

Rather than. . . And so, that is, you know, cuz there's Jamaican shops around here, but you can only get it in a can rather than being fresh.

MT:

Okay. Cause I mean in parts of America you'd have the climate right to be able to grow it probably.

SM:

Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, you only get it in a, basically in a can which is, I've cooked it here and it's, it’s fine, but it's not the same as getting it fresh.

MT:

No, absolutely not. And so, you know, so that came over, the ackee came over from, from modern day Ghana at the end of the 18th century and then the salt, saltfish which being [inaudible] around. But then I think it's the enslaved people, who, this idea of one pot cooking but also cooking in one pot and cooking things down. Cuz I mean the saltfish wasn't very pleasant. You have Mackerel Rundown that was made with salted mackerel and coconut milk and just kind of like cook down probably and then mixed with other things probably to mask the flavor. You know, I mean these things weren't recorded, but you can imagine the circumstances, when you know the circumstances, you can imagine their evolution.

SM:

Right.

MT:

And so, you know, like I guess Ackee and Saltfish Rundown. We have to, you know, like to thank the, the, the people from Africa who, who created these like incredible dishes that have, that have sort of survived, you know. And I think, you know, it blows my mind.

SM:

One of the things that I should just mention that I did an interview last season with Michael Twitty who's a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful writer. And he talked about how people coming from Africa would. . . the ladies would put the African rice in their hair so it was. . . and then they would use it when they got there. But it was considered by the slave owners as a. . . just a decoration. But when they got there they would use it to plant the African rice, which was, and I think that kind of thing comes over from Africa all the time. We see all those uses and so it obviously went to Jamaica and to the different islands in the Caribbean just as much. And I think that's really important because, you know, again, in England and, and different countries we think of, you know, or we, the people sometimes think of, you know, these wonderful people coming over from Nigeria, wherever and they don't realize just how useful and how purposeful they were with the food that they brought over. So, for me when I talked to him, that was just amazing and you are saying the same and it's something that they never. . . I mean the people in America, the white people in America, just never really think about. So, I think that's important.

MT:

Apparently, I mean just to say about that with ackee seeds, there were lots of reports about people wearing ackee seed necklaces as a sort of talisman to kind of bring good luck. And so, there are other stories but that's how ackee seeds came to, came to Jamaica. But there's never been. . . I never managed to find a kind of reliable source for that. It's almost like hearsay. But I think maybe that did happen, but I haven't been able to kind of confirm it through.

SM:

I mean it, it, it strikes me that it would do because they were such, you know, as you said, such an ingenious, you know range of countries.

MT:

And they’re beautiful seeds. The ackee seeds are really beautiful. So, you would, you would make something out of them.

SM:

I've never seen them. So that's really fascinating. I'm gonna have to go and find out some work about this. I, I mentioned here and it’s, it’s one of the things that you talk about as well. In 1837, and they did away with, you know, slavery out of a form that it was the slave owners who were paid, not the slaves who were paid. And I just find that absolutely astonishing. And in fact, I'm gonna move on to the Indian and Chinese now because they're a big part of Jamaican community because you look at curry and I did a whole series on the history of curry, about two. . . we're on season nine now. We did how curry developed from there, came to England, came. . . . And so, let's talk about curry powder first, cuz I make Jamaican curry powder. I make a range of curry powders here because, you know, that's just what I'm into. So, I believe that it did come out of the Jamaica, the Indian community. So, how. . . .Tell me about that, how the Indians came over because they took over from a sense from the slaves and how that created.

MT:

Yeah, so the. . . sort of after the, you know, the, the kinda the end of the abolishment of, of slavery took actually, you know, a few decades and then when it finally was banned then people, sort of, the Empire looked to other, other countries in, in, in the Empire. So, India and, and China. And there was this system of indentured servitude where you would pay a bond and then you would have to kinda pay it back and you'd get kind of, you know, at the end of it was normal sort of a five-year period. And at the end of that you could either be sent back home, have passage or you would be given money. And, and initially I think a piece of land. Although I don't think that actually came to pass for very many people. And, and a lot of spices were already grown in, in Jamaica. So, like there's different records and I speak about it in the book about what was growing there, kinda in there, there's a particular, particular area, this guy had this estate and he was actually mixed race and he was, he was, he owned slaves as well. And in his garden there was a kind of inventory after his death of everything that was growing there. And it includes lots of different spices and I think turmeric was there, and. . . . But then it was the arrival of the [inaudible] people from India who really introduced this idea. So like curry chicken and curry goats and, you know, curry mutton. And so that's where, where we have people from India to thank for that tradition. And then with the Chinese, so the Chinese, the influence is kind of less obvious but it's in ingredients. So, some people with their jerk recipes, they might add soy sauce to it. And also, kind of just there's different types of like different noodle dishes and things that are kind of like a bit of a fusion and just kind of, I don't know, like I mean things like different sauces and different sort of chili sauces that are part of Jamaican cuisine and get used kind of like interchangeably sometimes. I, I've literally just had, I was with a friend for lunch at having some jerk chicken and they'd used a sweet chili sauce in the, in the jerk gravy rather than using a ketchup or a barbecue sauce. Which I mean it is a first for me at that place. But yeah, so it's quite interesting.

SM:

Oh, that's actually, that's sounds really, really good. But let's talk about the dishes that, you know, people kind of know about Jamaican food and what, let's talk about jerk chicken first because that’s I think that's has a relationship to the Taino, doesn't it? That kind of while. . . . So, let's talk about that and then let's talk about this later dish that came out of India or not out of India, but was utilized by the Indians. So, let's talk about jerk chicken because it's probably the most famous, I guess. . .

MT:

Yes.

SM:

. . . for people who don't go there. So, tell us what jerk is.

MT:

So, jerk. Jerk is both kind of a noun and a verb, right. So, like, to jerk is to cook a protein. It actually started with pigs, wild pigs. But I guess like jerk chicken is probably the most, the most common now. But then it's also the noun. Like, it is. . . the dish is called jerk. And it started in the mountains of Jamaica. So, when the British took over from the Spanish in 1655, the Spanish had already introduced some form of chattel slavery from Africa. But it was kind of not of a, of a great scale, like it wasn't kind of as purposeful should we say, as it was under the British. And not at that point anyway. And then. . . So, but the [inaudible] people that were there either escaped from them or were released. And I think even some Spanish people went to go live in the mountains. And this isn't some sort of like sort of romantic kind of Swiss like a picture of Black people through the mountains. It was quite harsh terrain and quite hard to get to. But the. . . again, going back to. . . . And these people were called Maroons, I think it comes from the Spanish, Spanish word cimarron, which I think means kind of like. . .

SM:

Okay.

MT:

. . . wild or untamed or something. That's where the name is said to come from. And there were some Taino who had survived. Also. . . . And we get, you know, from Taino, the Taino spoken Arawak language and we get the word barbecue from that language like barbacoa.

SM:

Yes.

MT:

And that was to kind of cook over like a platform, kind of a wooden platform and over fire. And so in between them, cause the British were then trying to recapture these Maroons because it wasn't. . . like for lots of reasons cause the Maroons would go and carry out raids on the British camps and, you know, if people. . . if any enslaved people left, then they would go to the mountains and join these Maroon communities. And it was quite difficult for the British even though they had arms cause they were so treacherous, the [inaudible] treacherous, it was hard for them to get there and they didn't know, they didn’t know the terrain. So, the, the Maroons handled. . . . so, they had one over them. They had several over them in the fact. And so, they would capture what were these wild pigs and then they would cook them and they would kind of season them as much to flavor the meat as to. . . so as much to preserve the meat as to flavor. And they would wrap them in leaves and then they would bury them and cook them underground so that it didn't give away too much smoke that would reveal their position. . .

SM:

Right. Okay.

MT:

. . . to the British. And as well, the British had this massive PR exercises, exercise cause they wanted more British people to come over to kind of like, you know, help build kind of a bit more of a community. But if you have people who are, you know, who you, you have enslaved and you are enslaving their brethren and like, you know, and they're there kind of free and watching you, it's not gonna like you're kinda like watching your back. And so then eventually a treaty was formed. And so, there was a bit more freedom of movement between the Maroons. The Maroons agreed not to, kind of, you know. . .  there are lots of different stories. The Maroons agreed to return any escapees back to the plantations, whether they did or not is kind of, you know, up for discussion. And so, then you have these [inaudible] reports. This guy Hans Sloans again, he spoke about watching them, watching them jerk a pig. And so, the jerking in that sense is always using a knife to like stab holes through it so you can get that, that seasoning, like sort of penetrating as much of the surface area as possible. And then after these treaties were signed, you have these records of people coming down into the towns and with a big hunk of like pork and then kind of like slicing it off to order. And then this first sold. . .

SM:

[Drooling sounds]

MT:

I know, I know. Can you imagine how good it would've been? It was first sold commercially in Boston. And in Boston today there are still kind of like the jerk pits of Boston. And yeah, if anyone goes to Jamaica, I thoroughly recommend going there because it's just like the bustle of it. The kind of smells. And you have like the. . . cause it looks as so jerk has to be, like pimento has to be part of the jerk preparation.

SM:

Oh yeah. Absolutely.

MT:

It's cooked over pimento wood and it kind of like infuses the flavor, but you also have the pimento berries and the jerk marinade. And back in here in England I can’t. . . I could probably get pimento wood but it wouldn't be very sustainable. So I instead use bay, bay leaves which are everywhere and I use like bay branches. Like create a kind of like a blanket, put the chicken or pork and then cook it that way. And some pimento berries soaked in water directly on the coals.

SM:

And let's talk about the other one, which I, I absolutely love. Curry goat. Because it has that kind of Indian spice to me as well. I absolutely love it. But now here's the first thing, I've gotta ask this because one of the first things I ever saw was someone who put HP Sauce into their curry goat. And I don’t know if that comes from anywhere, if it comes from Jamaica, where they do have, you know HP Sauce. But that was just something I saw when I was in Jamaica and that's the only place I saw it. So, I just love that. Is that something you ever heard about? I've just, I've gotta ask it anyway.

MT:

No, it's not but there's, I think I've seen, Oh no, I have seen that. But I think that was in a recipe by a British person actually. Someone put HP Sauce I think in their curry, in their curry goat recipe. Yeah. It's not something. . . I can see it working cause you have kinda the fruitiness and it's like the sort of vinegariness of it. But it's not something. . .

[Cross talk]

I put it in my bacon sandwiches, not in my curry goat.

SM:

I’m glad to hear that it’s not then part of that or not. . . unless it's coming from a British guy. But tell me just a little bit about curry goat because all with that spices and everything in it, that, that strikes me as this beautiful Indian Jamaican mix that I have going. So, what's in that?

MT:

So, you have this, you have the kind of mix of spices, which is, you know, it's quite like a turmeric heavy spice blend.

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

And there's also pimento in there as well. And you have your, put fenugreek in mine and bit of coriander and you can put a bit of paprika in it as well. My coriander blend, I'll put a bit of paprika as well. And then you sort of leave it to sort of marinade. You want your, you know, kinda garlic, your ginger and your bit. . .

SM:

Oh, so good.

MT:

. . . of scotch bonnet, your scotch bonnet sort of goes in whole. And then I brown my goat meat. Some people don’t. They kind of push, add it to the pan with water. You want your thyme in there as well. Yeah. And then the whole scotch bonnet and then like cook it down cause I think browning meat and she's just like, I live for that sort of the browning meat taste. And then you cook it down and it ends up in a bit of coconut milk as well in it and towards the end and then some potatoes and it ends up being like it's quite a light, the sauce is quite light, it's quite watery almost. It's not a really thick one. . .

SM:

Oh, okay.

MT:

. . . cause you're not cooking out. There's not loads that you're cooking out for a long time to thicken it. So, it ends up being sort of quite not a water. . . I mean it’s got so much flavor and so much substance to it, but it's just not really thick. It's not a really thick sauce and it's just delicious. A bit of rice, a bit of rice and peas, maybe some roti.

SM:

And I've learned something there because I always cook it more like down like a curry. . .

MT:

Okay. Okay.

SM:

. . . and it has a slightly watery and that's something new to me. So that's that. If nothing else, if nothing else. . .

MT:

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . I've learned how to cook a proper curry goat. So that's fantastic.

BREAK MUSIC

SM:

Hi everybody, this is Simon Majumdar, the creator and host of the Eat My Globe food history podcast. Now, those of you have been listening to the podcast since we began over two years ago – nearly 50 episodes so far – will know that we have never sought out sponsorship for the podcast. It’s very much been a labor of love. However, along the way, a large number of people have approached us suggesting they would like to support the podcast. And so, we have opened up a page on Patreon dot com to allow those of you who listen regularly to do just that. Any support we will get will allow us to purchase research materials, buy ingredients for recipes, and maybe, when we can get out and about, to bring you some very special in-the-field reporting. But, and this is really important. This is not just a one-way street. For varying levels of membership of our Patreon club, there will be access to fantastic Eat My Globe swag, including that incredible chopping board so many of you have written to me about, recipes based on historical periods about which we chat each week, video shout outs, signed pictures, and even along the way, some very special episodes just for members. So, if you’ve enjoyed the episodes of Eat My Globe you’ve listened to so far, and would like us to make many more into the future, do head over to www dot Patreon dot com slash Eat My Globe and consider taking out a membership. Any support will be much appreciated. Remember, that’s www dot Patreon dot com slash Eat My Globe. So, thank you very much, and keep listening.

And now. . . I want to talk just in the end just a little bit before we bring you onto some fun questions. Hopefully these have been fun anyway, but just some fun questions. I want to talk about these bread starches. Things like patties, which I make at home here. Although we can't get scotch bonnets here unless we go out, we tend to get habaneros, which are not as warm, not as, but we just because of the Mexican community. Yeah. And we have a great community of people from South America, but we don't get a lot of the scotch bonnets. But anyway, things like patties, things like the breads, things like Johnny cakes. I mean there's a whole range of this in Jamaica and I want to know where that came from because it's all, is it coming from lots and lots of different communities? Cause you have rotis there in Barbados and you have that coming over as well.

MT:

Yeah. So, you have rotis and, and roti like in, in Trinidad is kind of the, you know, in the, sort of the, there's a, a much bigger Indian community in, in Trinidad. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . and that tells [inaudible], and so you have patties and patties, they say that maybe there's a connection between patties and like sort of pasties in the UK.

SM:

Oh, okay.

MT:

There are with some of the bakes and stuff like that. So, bun is, there's meant to be a link between bun and hot cross buns in the UK. You have like the fruitcakes, like your rum cakes. Again, the kind of, kind of transference of ideas and, you know, black cake in, in the Caribbean and kind of the influence of the British in that way. And then you have. . . So, wheat was quite late to Jamaica and actually I think the first wheat came from like mainland America. And so, you had made. . . .

SM:

Oh, okay.

MT:

But yeah, I guess there wasn't even, not a lot. There was cornbread that bread made from maize, but that wasn't as, it wasn't as common. And also, it spoiled quite quickly cause I think, I think the Taino made bread with, with maize but it just wasn't as. . . like it was cassava bread was prepared cause it would last, it would last longer. And then you have something, you have, I mean there are so many different like dumplings in, in. . . . Like literally, I was saying that I was having lunch today, so I had it at Maureen’s down, down the road in, in Brixton between Brixton and Herne Hill. And so, we had chicken soup and in that you have your boiled round dumplings and you have your spinners, which are the long, long dumplings. . .

SM:

Yeah.

MT:

. . . that are really easy to make really quick. And then we had fried dumpling on the side. So just in that.

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

And I had, I had curry chicken actually for my main. So, just in that one, in that one meal I've got three different types of, three different types of dumpling. And then you've also got your festival, which has got a bit of corn meal in it. And it's private. It's like a sweetened dough. It's just, yeah. So. . . It’s just. . . and so. . . and so, it’s just, I mean, it, it’s just become part of the, you know, the part of the repertoire. And I think because of the kind of the nature of work in Jamaica you have a lot of starchy foods. And, and the good thing about dumplings is that they bulk something up because, you know, for like any other soupy part from. . . Jamaican soups, I think I don't really see them as meal. But then with Jamaican soups, they fill me up because they've got, like, you know, your. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

. . . boiled dumping in there, your spinners. . .

SM:

Oh.

MT:

. . . and you have all your hearty food in there as well. So, it's like a proper, it fills you up. It's a proper meal. You can go and do a day's work on the back of it.

SM:

Oh, I have to, I have to say I just have to go back to Jamaica now.

MT:

You do. You do.

SM:

It’s. . . It. . . It was. . . We had some great times. And I have to ask you a, one question. Maybe, that you don't have an answer, but of the two main patties people who sell 'em, one is, what’s it called? There's one called. . .

MT:

Tastee. Tastee and Juici.

SM:

That's it. Tastee and Juici. Do you have a choice? Did you particularly like. . .

MT:

No, and this is a very charged question, Simon. I mean. . .

[Laughter]

. . . don’t make me, don’t make me decide. It's like choosing my best children and my favorite children.

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

No, to be honest, I don't, I don’t. I will, I will. . . Like. . . I mean, I really like. . . I like the fried chicken at Tastee Chicken at Tastee’s patties. So, I will, I will get a bit of fried chicken. If I had the choice, I'd go there cause I'd get a patty, I'll get a bit of fried chicken. But I don't really, I don’t really mind. Like my. . . Jack’s very much a Juici Patties person. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MT:

. . . so, she just thinks I’m, I’m. . . thinks I'm an absolute loser but. . . for going into Tastee, but I just. . . a patties a patty.

SM:

Oh, that's nice. Now we're gonna just finish with a, apart from giving you time to give everyone how they can reach you and find all about you, which I know they're gonna want to do after listening to this because you've been fantastic. We're gonna just do some fun questions. As I said, I hope the other questions were fun, but these are just even more fun.

MT:

They were.

SM:

So, fun questions. So, if Melissa was a meal, what would it be?

MT:

Oxtail. I'd be oxtail because oxtail takes a long time to cook, but it's worth it when you get there. And it might take me a long time to get round to doing something, but I promise. . .

[Laughter]

. . . it'll be worth it when I finally get around to it. And it's tasty too.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

And that is a great answer. That's fantastic. Okay. If you had to pick one period in history or a great meal in history, and it could be from any time, it could be outside of, you know, obviously your knowledge about Jamaica, but it could be Jamaica, what would your meal be or what was your one period in history be?

MT:

I think, I think I’d be. . . I'd love to be in Jamaica pre-Columbus and, and just, in like watching people prepare food, watching like the cassava flat breads being, being made, like the bammy. You know, watching them like grilling fish and watching them catching the fish.

SM:

Oh.

MT:

They had ingenious ways of doing it. So just being, being part of an everyday meal there. Well, I mean when they had guests they would like kind of really roll out for them. So, I, I would have loved to have witnessed that and just, and just kind of see a snippet of, of their lives before they were kinda, before the Europeans were in it for them.

SM:

I think that's a great answer as well because you are relating it back to there. And here, this is another question. This is the only. . . What is do you think the greatest invention in food history? And yeah, as I say we've, we’ve kept it away now from the. . . everyone will say fire and everyone will say refrigeration or everyone would say. . . So, now, let's try and find a new one. What would it, what would it be?

MT:

I think nixtamalization of, of maize is pretty, is pretty clever. For. . . I mean. . . I say. . . Okay. So, nixtamalization of, of corn, I think. But also, so that process, it blows my mind how you can create a completely different product and the end, and kinda the legacy that has. But it's not really an invention. I think as an invention that, will that, will that do as an invention?

SM:

Yeah, I think so because someone had to watch and wait and then decide to eat it, and you know. So, I think that's perfect thing.

[Cross talk]

MT:

To even think of doing that. And then, and then how that. . . . I mean, was it an accident or, you know, I don’t know, I think it blows, it blows my mind. But also, a big shout out to the people who discovered that cassava and ackee were poisonous in some circumstances and, and persevered so that we could, we could enjoy them. Cause yeah, I mean, I mean, blimey. How many people had to die for, for, for us to be able to consume those.

SM:

I know I think about that sometimes with the hakarl in Iceland that they used to. . . . It's the basking shark that they bring in and then bury in the snow and then hang up and they go, How is this possible that someone discovered that? And you're like, oh, well, you know. So, a couple of, a couple of hundred people had to die along the way. . .

MT:

Yes.

SM:

. . . for us to have this rotten. . . . But that's a fantastic one as well. Tell me. . .

MT:

Wait, wait. Is that because, is that. . . Simon, so is that because it’s. . . Is that. . . at some point, is it poisonous or is that cause the liver can be quite toxic? Can't tell something.

SM:

No, it has it, yes, it has a little, I can't remember what it is, but a, like a, alkaline below the skin. And so, if they bury it in snow and I don. . . . You know, whether people come along and pee on it, I don't know. But some people come along and then hang it up and then it dries out this alkaline and then people come and eat it. And it was because they had this thing, this is totally different from what we're talking about, but they have this thing called Thor’s Feast and they basically they were totally cut off in the time they would eat roast puffin and all of the things that they had there. And people would come along and eat this little bit of shark. You could have a little bit about this big and it would basically clear the house, but people would come along and eat it and that's why this little alkaline. . . . So, that's how they used to do it. But it's kind of, how they did it, I don't know. But they did it with, you know, a couple of hundred people dying in the meantime.

MT:

Wow.

SM:

I know, I know. But finally, let's make sure that everyone knows how to connect with you because this has been fantastic and I know they want to go and buy the book, “Motherland.” So, first of all, let's mention, “Motherland,” and its full title and then let's talk about how they can find you on all of the other places.

MT:

So, “Motherland” is a Jamaican cookbook. It's a cookbook and it's got kind of your classic dishes, the oxtail curry, chicken curry, goat patties, your Ackee and Saltfish, saltfish fritters. And then so, woven into the recipes are these stories and kind of the history of how these different foods made it Jamaica and the people who helped kind of hone the cuisine that we know today as Jamaican cuisine, one of the most singular, incredible cuisines on the planet. And then you can find me. So, I, I. . .  My, my social media handles are @FowlMouthsFood, fowl like as in kind of like chicken, F O W L, fowl mouths food. And I've got a website that I don't really update very much and I write for BBC Good Food Magazine and I write recipes for like the Guardian and stuff. So, I've got a lot of recipes and things online. And then, yeah, I mainly use Instagram. That's where I put a lot of my content and a lot of my recipes and a lot of my musings and things like that. So, I share most of my stuff on, on, on Instagram.

SM:

That's fantastic. Melissa, first of all, I just want to thank you because this has been an absolutely fantastic conversation and, you know, I didn't know as much about Jamaica as I did and, you know, I do a lot of history, which is what I do. And so, this was absolutely brilliant. This was. . . I, I mean it. This was fantastic. So, I just wanna say to you, thank you so much. I know all the folks who listen to Eat My Globe are gonna be very, very, you know, keen on this as well. I wanted just to say thank you so much.

MT:

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. Thanks, Simon.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Do make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www dot Eat My Globe dot com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

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Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE, a podcast about things you didn’t know you didn’t know about food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

[Pa pa pa pa pa sound]

Also, a huge thank you to Sybil Villanueva for her help with research and the preparations of the transcripts for this episode, which can be found on the website.