Eat My Globe

Interview with Award Wining Cookbook Author & Activitst

MiMi Aye

INTRO MUSIC

Simon Majumdar (“SM”):

Hi everybody, it's Simon Majumdar here presenting one of my favorite people on Eat My Globe, a podcast that tells you everything you didn't know you didn't know about food. And on today's very special episode, we are delighted to introduce MiMi Aye, author of both, “Mandalay: Recipes and Tales from a Burmese Kitchen” and “Noodles,” both of which are necessary for your own kitchen.

Although MiMi and I have not met, I don't think we have, I am thrilled and really pleased that she has taken time to be with us from her work, uh, to talk about her passions – of how food could be used against life threatening situations. These would include the horrors we see now in her beloved Burma Myanmar, to those we might see in India, my own love. In Ukraine, and even here in the United States. And as well as that, I know that MiMi will talk to us about her passion for the food of Myanmar and the origins of where that food came from. It's my really great pleasure to introduce you to the one and only MiMi Aye.

MiMi Aye (“MA”):

Hello. Hi. It's very lovely to be here, Simon.

[Laughter]

SM:

I know. It's, uh, I'm so, pleased that you are here because I've been trying to find a reason to get you on and now, now we have it.

MA:

Oh, it's very easy. I, I'm a cheap date so you can get me on at any time.

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

Um, but it's funny, you know, you said that we, we haven't met in real life, but I think we've known each other for about 15 years just because. . .

SM:

Yes.

MA:

. . . we've, we've been haunting the online forums of food for such a long time.

[Laughter]

SM:

I, I know. It's, it's one of those crazy things that we've never, ever actually met. And yet we do know each other pretty. . .

MA:

We do.

SM:

. . . kinda intimately through Twitter.

MA:

That’s. . . . You became a, a celebrity abroad though, that's why.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

Well, I dunno about celebrity, but I am abroad.

First of all though, thank you. Thank you for taking the time from your very busy schedule to come and join us on the My Globe podcast. Um, and before we go into the kind of subjects, um, that we have, you know, to cover from you, tell us a bit about who you are, uh, and about your kind of knowledge of, you know, Burma and Myanmar and Burmese food. Uh, so, let's, let's kind of talk about that first and then let's look at Burmese food before we go into talking about food as protest.

MA:

Okay, brilliant. So, um, like you say, I am a primarily a food writer with occasional forays into politics and culture. Um.

[Laughter]

My, my parents and my brothers immigrated to the UK from Burma, uh, just before I was born. My mum was pregnant with me, so I was a stow away. Um, but like di. . . diaspora from many countries, they always hoped that they would return to Myanmar. Um, I think they still do even though they're in their seventies. Um, and especially because like the rest of our family was, are still there even now. Um, so, they made sure to kind of teach me how to speak Burmese. They taught us about the culture. They reared us on Burmese food to the extent that like school dinners, I probably liked them more than anyone else because they were, they were foreign to me, you know, because at home we only ate Burmese food.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

So, so, you know, having like apple crumble or gypsy tart or you know, all that kind of stuff, it's just quite thrilling, you know, that, that was exotica to me.

[Laughter]

Um, so, um, and then, you know, as children and growing up, we would stay, we stayed in touch with, um, our family. So, we, we'd know, we'd call them, we'd write to them, and then as soon as my parents could afford it, um, we, we went to, to Burma, to Myanmar. So, like every summer that's where I would be. I'd be like staying with my grandparents and my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so, I'm kinda, I guess I'm sort of a third culture kid in that respect. So, you know, my heart is in two places, definitely.

SM:

I mean, I, I feel the same because I'm kind of half in India, half in, well, Wales, which my, uh, mother was, but half, half in Yorkshire and I mean, it's all and half in London. Well, I dunno what you get cuz that's too many halves. . .

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . but you know what I mean. Uh, and so, I totally accept that and, and that's how I felt particularly about India. So, I feel that. But before we go on, and I, I think this actually does, uh, go into India, but let's, let's talk about Burmese food cuz a lot of people don't know it. Um, they don't know kind of the indigenous or the Indian aspect or Chinese or all of this. So, let's, let's talk about this because I think people really want to know about this. And we have a huge Eat My Globe audience and they, and they really are, you know, kind of food, food people. So, let's get them excited about this.

I went to Burma with my wife the day before Suu Kyi was actually, um, nominated. Okay. So, that was a big time and it was a big thing. . .

MA:

Um.

SM:

. . . and on all the papers and everything. Um, and we enjoyed our time there and we went everywhere. Um, and so it became very special to us because my, my parents used to go from Bu. . . , uh, from India to there and they had a home there. It was, it was a big thing.

MA:

Wow.

SM:

So, yeah. So, um, talk to me about, first of all, let's talk about the indigenous food in . . .

MA:

Yes.

SM:

. . . Burma. And, and what's so, special about that because it, it is, and the way you talk about it in your food is just so special.

MA:

Oh, thank you.

Um, so, okay, so, first of all, let's, let's do a little bit of kind of a background. So, Myanmar has 54, 55 million people, population. Um, and we've got 130 plus ethnic groups. They've each got their own cuisines. They've each got their own kind of dress, language, culture. And so, I'm gonna tell you right from the start that it will be foolhardy. . .

SM:

Yes.

MA:

. . . and arrogant of me to try to speak for the whole country. Um, and it's also quite common for people to be a mix of those ethnicities. So, like me, personally, I'm actually a mix of four different ethnic groups, um, about a quarter each. So, I'm Bamar, which is like the majority. I think that's something like 70% of the country.

SM:

Yeah.

MA:

Um, and then I'm Shan, which is the second biggest ethnic group. But, uh, really about 10% I think as in 10% of the country.

MA:

Um, and then I'm Intha, which is kind of, they're like boat people I suppose. They live around a lake and the lake has got Inle. So, Intha means the sons of Inle Lake. Um, and then I'm kind of like a renegade quarter Yunnanese. So, there's, there's Chinese in me, um, and kind of that, you know, we'll talk about that a bit more later about how the like the melding of the borders and how, you know, things move around. But basically because of the mix, I am, I, personally, um, am kind of focused on upper Myanmar, upper Burma food. So, that is kind of, um, not. . . away from the coastal regions towards kind of, um, like Mandalay, Mogo, Shan state. Um, and so, the food that I like and eat. . . . So, so, here's, here's an example. For example, if you were in Yangon, which was the erstwhile capital, um, you would probably have a lot of cucumbers in your food because, you know, that's the crop that is kind of very almost iconic down there. And so, like in your salads, in your soups, um, you, there would be cucumbers. Um, but as soon as you start kind of moving towards Mandalay, so, upper Myanmar, then onions would be what features, because that's the crop that's most below it.

SM:

Oh.

MA:

Um, and so, like the same salad. So, it would, you'd say it was something like, I don't know, pig’s head salad, that pigs head salad would have cucumbers as the base in Yangon, but they'd have, um, onions as the base in Mandalay. Um, and so, there isn't that much cohesion. But I will say that there's probably kind of maybe three foods that I can say are pretty iconic of Myanmar, and you could say were kind of properly indigenous. So, the first one, and uh, this probably comes as no surprise to you, uh, will be rice, right?

SM:

Of course.

[Laughter]

MA:

[Laughter]

I mean, Myanmar is one of the countries who historically has been referred to as the rice bowl of Asia. I think India was referred to as some point. So, it's, it's just one of the providers. I mean ee, even now I think it is the seventh largest provider of rice to the rest of the world. A producer.

SM:

Wow.

MA:

Um, and apparently they have identified 2000 different varieties of rice, um, in Myanmar. Um, so, the extent, I mean, I have no idea. I, apparently there's, there's one called Paw Hsan Hmwe, which is meant to be kind of the king of all rices and it's just meant to be super fragrant. And I think it's, it's kind of like a, a Basmati type rice, very fragrant that kind of, kind of really holds its texture when you cook with it. Uh, very versatile. Um, but again, you know, like a lot of countries in the region also, like when you see someone first thing you don't say, how are you, you say, [speaking in Burmese] which means have you eaten rice yet today?

SM:

[Laughter]

Yes.

MA:

So, you know, is that important? Right. So, rice, for sure, rice, we, we, I think we can safely say everyone in Burma eats and loves rice.

Um, the second thing I think is probably quite iconic and, and known as being quite unusual is tea. And I, when I say unusual, obviously the whole region of, you know, Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia is very famous for tea production. Um, but in Myanmar, um, we are famous for eating, eating tea because. . .

SM:

Yes.

MA:

Yes.

[Laughter]

So, like our, our kind of most important kind of culturally and historically thing is something called lahpet. And lahpet is basically pickled, pickle tea leaves. Um, and those pickle tea leaves, when I say that it's kinda historically culturally important. So, like historically, for example, you know, we have, like I said, it's many, many ethnic groups, which means there there's always been warring kingdoms. And what would happen is in the same way that, you know, you have that kind of trope of a peace pipe, we would share the pickle tea to show that these kings. .

SM:

Huh.

MA:

. . . had decided to, you know, put down their weapons and uh. . .

SM:

Oh, I didn't know that.

MA:

. . . having a truce. Yeah. Um, and then pickle tea was also shared by the two kind of, um, opponents in like a court dispute in precolonial times. So, like if the, you know, the, the mediator arbitrator would kind of like lay down their judgment. Um, if the parties that were in dispute agreed they would share the pickle tea, the lahpet. So, it's kind of like symbolically very important and also kind of religiously. So, so, like Myanmar is, I dunno, I think it's like 80% Buddhist. Um, and one of the kind of things that we have is that when the child's around about 11 to the age of 16, they, a boy comes of age. So, it's like, a Bar Mitzvah, basically. And if you are like from, you know, if you are Buddhist and you, you are, you know, to follow this, this right this, this right of passage, what the family does is that they would go from door to door, um, and present people with like an alms bowl, which would have like a little offering of this pickle tea. And that would be the formal invitation to this, this ceremony. So. . .

SM:

Oh.

MA:

. . . it's, this pickle tea, this lahpet is just entwined in so many different ways. Um, so, yes, tea would be definitely be the second thing after rice.

SM:

Can I. . . just before we go on from tea.

MA:

Yeah.

SM:

I'm assuming that it only came in when Robert Fortune went in and stole it from China and did, and that was in the, well, 1860s. So, was that because he was the only one I believe brought it to India and Burma and everywhere else in the world?

MA:

Well, I don't know the veracity of this, but the. . .

[Laughter]

. . . you know, but there is a legend, there's always a legend. Um, but in, in Myanmar, the King Alaung Sithu, who was king in 1100s AD, he was the person who first started the locals cultivating tea in the Shan state. . .

SM:

Oh.

MA:

. . . in Myanmar. So, since the 1100s, allegedly, I have to have this disclaimer.

SM:

Okay. Okay.

[Cross talk]

MA:

Apparently, apparently Myanmar produces 80 million kilos of tea a year. So, you know.

[Laughter]

SM:

Wow, okay. Well I, yes, I guess when they, when they eat it so much and I definitely ate it when I was there.

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

It was delicious.

MA:

Yeah.

SM:

Um, and sorry, you were gonna talk, talk about the third dish, I think.

MA:

Yes, the third dish. I mean, I say dish, these are all kind of ingredients, aren't they? Because you know, it depends on who you are and how you're using it. Um, I think the third thing is probably, uh, Ngapi. Ngapi is, um, I suppose you would say shrimp paste, except ours is usually made more of fish. Um, and so, yeah, basically it is, it is fish paste, shrimp paste, which is either made from kind of freshwater fish because of the Irrawaddy River, which goes like all the way through the country. Or there are coastal versions which are kind of more pungent cuz you know, it's coastal fish. But Ngapi is something that I think most of the country indulges in to the extent that there's even like a jokey saying where they say that you can't be Burmese if you don't like Ngapi. And it literally runs through our veins, which is quite a pungent thing to run through our veins.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

But, but yeah, I mean, and, and apparently we are the people that introduced, um, this paste, fish paste, shrimp paste to places like Cambodia to Laos to Thailand to the extent that the word for the shrimp paste is kind of derived from our word, saying Ngapi literally means pressed fish. Um, and so, in Thailand it's called Gabpi. And I've actually seen, um, like a British Library record, um, which has like an edict from like, um, one of the, the royal kings, the, like the Thai, Thai kings, which said that they wanted Ngapi to be officially renamed, Gabpi, to distance itself from the Burmese origins. So. . .

[Laughter]

SM:

Oh.

MA:

. . . so. . .

SM:

That's an interesting one as well. I mean, I'm, you know, married to a, a Filipino person who is just, and they're popular with, you know. . .

MA:

Mmm.

SM:

. . . fish paste and the, and so, did this just spread across that thing from there? Or did they just make up something similar?

MA:

No, no. . . I suspect that it just is one of those things where things kind of develop at the same time. I, it's a certain type of synchronicity, right? Um, and I think that's probably why, for example, in, in some places it's very much more, uh, shrimp based, you know. Um, but I, I, like I said, all I know is that where stuff is called something similar to Ngapi, it is apparently because the Burmese introduced it that way, so.

SM:

Wow.

MA:

But I mean, you know, Ngapi is, is, is just like, you know, I, I think you mentioned to me once that you really like Balachaung.

SM:

Oh yeah. Which I absolutely love. And I make, I make it home now and it's fantastic.

MA:

Yeah. Exactly. And you know, Ngapi is like often considered an essential ingredient. Um, it'll make your house stink for a week when you've made it. Um, but you know, it's, it's kind of, it's just so, it's one of those things, it's a bit like, you know, Proust’s Madeleine, right? If you, you get a whiff of Ngapi, it makes you feel like miss home.

[Laughter]

SM:

Yeah, no, I absolutely make it here. And for anyone who's, uh, listening at home, balachaung, we actually have a, a, a version of it in India, and particularly in the kind of, uh, west of India. Uh, and it's, but it's very, very different. But they call it Balachao.

MA:

Hmm.

SM:

Which is very interesting that they have the same name for it, um, because they don't do a lot of paste in that way, but they do use the fish.

MA:

Yeah.

SM:

So, it's, I think it's fascinating that they, you know, obviously near the border they've taken it across but changed it to what they do.

MA:

Yeah.

SM:

Um, I mean, let's, let's talk about, um, the food that you have in, uh, Burma, Myanmar, what you have from the different people who surround it as well and how that comes in. Because I, I mean, I guess to the borders have changed and all the food has changed. And, and how much do you think that is included? I, I tell the story that the best Biryani I've ever had was in, which is bizarre cuz I go to India all the time and I go to, uh, was in Yangon and it was, uh,

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

No, it was, it was absolutely fantastic.

MA:

I am, I am incredibly flattered. Also, I'm surprised you haven't been tarred and feathered for, for saying this by, by Indian people.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

Oh no. Well, yeah, I, I guess they know what I'm like that I will also have an opinion. It was, it was, um, and it came with Balachaung, which was the great thing.

MA:

Yes.

SM:

It came with, you know, all the different sauces.

MA:

We have, it comes with pickles, it comes with the side salad, it comes with the soup, you know, so, we eat it, Biryani, completely differently from its origin. You know.

[Laughter]

SM:

Very, very different. Um, and so, that's where I talk about Indian food. But you know, you'll talk about the Chinese food, you'll talk about all of this, but it is like every country, it's always slightly altered.

MA:

Yes.

SM:

So, maybe we could just before we go on to talk about kind of food as protest and we talk about other things, maybe we could just talk about how those foods come in to. . .

MA:

Of course.

SM:

And, and how they change. . .

MA:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . as they come in, because I think that's a fascinating one, uh, for everyone to listen to at home.

MA:

Yeah, for sure.

So, I mean, you know, let's talk about Indian food, first of all. So, obviously, you know, there, there, there's a huge Indian population in the country anyway. Um, but there's also been migration back and forth historically, forever, in a day. Um, and of course, you know, people, they bring the food that they love with them. Um, and you know, that, that means that even in parts of Myanmar where there aren't necessarily Indian communities, there's Indian food, um, and the food sometimes it's very kind of, you know, it's recognizably the same. So, we really like Naan. Naan bread.

SM:

Yes, you do.

MA:

Um, and in fact, I think most of our breads were just stolen from India. I'm just gonna be very upfront about this.

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

So, we like Naan. We like, um, we like Paratha. We like, uh, Chapati. We like Puri. Puri is like one of the, the favorite things. Absolutely. So, you know, a nice Aloo Puri. I, I, I got to the age of about 18 thinking Aloo Puri was a Burmese thing. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

. . . and then I was disillusioned.

[Laughter]

So. . .

SM:

Hell yes.

MA:

So, these things, all of these things are kind of pretty much intact, right? So, you, you know, you would not be able to tell the difference really, because it's, it's just so well-loved and you know, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? Um, but then you have. . .

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

Well it’s true. But then you have the other thing where, you know, people like to tweak and obviously we see this everywhere. Um, and so, you know, one of the things that's very popular is what we call Samosa Thoke. Now Thoke means salad. Um, Samosa Thoke means a Samosa Salad and, and what this is, is quite interesting. So, it's kind of more or less original style samosa, although sometimes we kind of go for Chinese style spring roll pastry rather than kind of original Samosa pastry.

SM:

Yes, I remember this.

MA:

Yeah. And then we kind of chop it up and then we kind of mix it with onions and cabbage and mint leaves and, and then pour a kind of soup made of tamarind on top of it. And it is, you know, you wouldn't know it was meant to have samosas in it. It's kind of, I dunno, I guess maybe having like learnt a bit more about different types of Indian food, I guess it almost has similarities to something like, I don't know, Pani Puri cuz it's got those flavors. . .

SM:

Mm-hmm.

MA:

. . . you know.

SM:

Okay.

MA:

And then, and often you'll have like a bit of masala kind of, uh, sprinkled on top as well. So, either it's recognizably Indian, but I mean I think it was in one of Madhur Jaffrey's books, so, she actually said, I have seen this thing in Burma and I have no idea what it is. And they tell me that it's meant to be Indian, so.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

That. I love that. And you know, it's always good to see, you know, kind of India affecting other places in the world. And I guess. . .

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . obviously being so close to it. And it was part of the British Indian territories that. . .

MA:

Yeah.

SM:

. . . uh, going back. So, I guess that's very close.

And then we look at obviously the, I mean Chinese food is a vast combination, but they take it into, um, Myanmar and tell me about that because I, you know, we tasted a lot of Chinese food, but again, it was very different.

MA:

So, the Chinese food we have, it's probably because. . . as we border Yunnan, that's the province of China that is closest to Myanmar. And as I said, I'm a quarter Yunnanese. And so, I think it's just what's happened is that all of the kind of, that type of Chinese food has very much just washed over the border. And like I said, even now I'm discovering new things. So, like we have, um, there are rice, there's rice noodle dishes, which are called Meeshay. Um, and depending on the town you're in, it's slightly different. But basically they're like fat round rice noodles, which should basically, and I can't say this so, I'm not even gonna try, but it's the Chinese rice noodle called M I X I A N. Um.

SM:

Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah. Oh yes, I know.

MA:

Yeah, yeah. Mix, mixian, I'll say. And then someone's gonna write it and complain. But basically that's that rice noodle. But we've wholeheartedly adopted it so that it wouldn't be recognizable anymore. Um, and then another thing that we have, which um, most people are surprised by, and that's probably because they don't know about Yunnanese food, is that our tofu, we, what we call tofu isn't what most of the rest of the world calls, call tofu. So, most of the rest of the world is this the soybean, right?

SM:

Yeah.

MA:

Um, for us it is a mixture of peas. So, it's either kind of, um, yellow split peas or it's chickpeas, or it's, um, kind of yellow, yellow peas. So, is that va? Va, I don't remember what it's called. Vat. I can't remember. Do you know the yellow peas? The whole yellow peas you can get there are dried and I cannot remember what they're called for the life of me.

Um, but those are the ones. Basically, or Gram or Besam. So, basically it's kind of like a mixture of peas and, and what we do is that we kind of, we, you know, grind it, mix it up, boil it up, and then it, we leave it to set and then it's, you know, it is a slab of what we call tofu, but it's not what anyone else thinks is tofu. Um, and that has come from Yunnan because, you know, you just have to cross the border and you see that they're doing the exact same thing. But because China is so vast, I actually don't think that many people realize that's where it's come from. Um, and so, a lot of people when they eat chickpea tofu or pea tofu or you know, this kind of Gram flour tofu, they assume it was kind of spontaneously invented by the Burmese. And you know, I've gotta be honest, we got it from the Chinese, you know.

[Laughter]

Um, and so, it, it's those kind of things where, where I guess we've adopted stuff that's not necessarily that obvious. Cuz obviously, you know, in the UK it's Cantonese food that is the primary.

SM:

Yes.

MA:

Um, and there isn't actually that much Cantonese food in Myanmar apart from we do like roast duck. So.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

There's like this, there's this chain of roast duck restaurants called Golden Duck, and like everyone just goes crazy for it. Um, but otherwise, yeah, I think a lot of the stuff that we have assimilated, we've done it quite suddenly. So, it's not entirely obvious. Um, and you know, it's the same with kind of other, other kind of types of food. So, like with Thai food, I think, um, one of the things. . . . So, there, one of the kingdoms that was, um, one of the primary kingdoms for a long time was, uh, Mon, the Mon Kingdom. Now the Mon Kingdom, I think historically have the same roots as a lot of people in Thailand. And so, you will see dishes in, in Myanmar and Burma like Mohinga, which is our national dish, right? So, this, this national dish, well I say national, there'll be who will bear [inaudible] and complain.

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

But basically it, it is like a, it's a fish soup on rice noodles with herbs. That's at its heart. That's, it's a fishy soup.

SM:

Yes.

MA:

Um, and this is basically not that different from, I think, it's called Namya in Thailand. . .

SM:

Yep.

MA:

. . . um, except they will primarily maybe put long beans and mint on it, whereas we will primarily put coriander, but it's basically the same dish. And that's because the dish has come from the Mon Kingdom. And so, so, as I said, you know, it's like one of those things where if you go back, we've all got the same common ancestor, right?

SM:

Yep.

MA:

So, because you know, this, this ebb and flow has been happening for such a long time, there isn't, it's not quite so obvious that you can point at something and go Indian, you know what I mean? So, Thai.

[Laughter]

SM:

It is, Yeah.

MA:

I will tell you one thing though, one thing that is very obviously stolen and that we [inaudible], I'm gonna kill this, but you know, I know I said the breads, we've stolen all the breads, but the desserts also tend to be stolen because we, we, we are kind of one of those countries where I think probably like fresh fruit is the thing that we have.

SM:

Yep.

MA:

But you know, desserts aren't, aren't a thing that you have at the end of meal. Like many other countries, it is, you know what, you have a snack, you know, instead of ice cream, you might have like a bowl or something or, you know, um, and basically most of our desserts, I think, are stolen from India and Malaysia. So.

[Laughter]

SM:

Ah.

MA:

Because, and I say why. Because they're, they're primarily coconut based, and Myanmar as a whole does not tend to use coconut in anything apart from desserts. And then, and then all the desserts, if you have something in Burma, you won't see like an, an analogous thing in either India or Malaysia. So, this is my, my theory, I'm not, I haven't verified this in any way.

[Laughter]

But just because a lot of the time, I swear like the versions that you have in India and Malaysia just seem to be that much more kind of elaborate or refined or whatever. And I just think, yeah, we've just nicked this, we've just stolen this too. So.

SM:

I'm glad that people, uh, do, like you do say, Oh, well we nick this and we did this. I'm a great believer that, you know, Calcutta or India or blah blah, they just stole it from everywhere. And uh. . .

MA:

Yeah.

SM:

And people kind of don't like to admit it. And I go, we all stole it from this because. . .

[Cross talk]

Yeah.

MA:

There’s nothing wrong with being a culinary magpie, especially when, you know, we don't have an oven culture, right? Myanmar does not have an oven culture. We have one cake, and even that cake was stolen. So.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

So, our, our, our cake, and it's like a Semolina cake, but it's basically Suji Ka Halwa, you know, it is literally Semolina pudding. We don't, we, we, we cook it on the stove, and if you've got an oven, which is rare, we will stick it in the oven. But yeah, it's just Semolina pudding. So.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

Which is a great, great point to, to go into food as protest.

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

Uh, now I think that's fantastic. And I think for people listening, that's a great description because I think quite frankly, people don't know, uh, Burmese Myanmar food as they, as they should do. And I will tell you, just from my visits there, it was just fantastic from the restaurants we went to, to the little street stalls, to everywhere we went, it was, and we, uh, we met with my, uh, Filipino brother, uh, who came along and it was the food. And he's a big eater, a big eater. And everywhere we went, he was trying things and we were trying things, and the food was just magnificent. So, you know, for me it was just, I mean, you know, despite what's happened more recently, it was just a great, great trip for us.

Um, what I'd like to do now though, uh, let's, because I wanted to talk to you about kind of food as protest.

MA:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

Because that's your thing. You are, you know, big into what's happening in, you know, Myanmar right now, you're talking about it. I think it's really important. It, you know, it is for me and I read about it, you know, all the time. Um, so, I th. . . . I just thought just as a kind of finish to this, or we've got some fun questions coming later. . .

MA:

Hmm.

SM:

. . . um, how, how food as protest, and by this I don't mean kind of flinging food, like anything.

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

Yeah. And that, that's kind of a waste for this, but how food can be used as protest. And I just really wanted to talk to you about that because you are so much in kind of in the thoughts of everyone on Twitter and all of this. And we'll talk about Twitter later on. You know, you are so, much in the thoughts of them. So, I, I just thought you could be a great, uh, person to describe this for me. Um, so, yeah, and, and we do, we talk about, you know, yogurt in ancient Greece and we talk about, you know, tomato, well, not tomatoes and eggs in those point, but we, uh, in ancient Rome, but we use them in, in ancient Rome with food, and we use them, you know, more recently in, um, you know, well since the 1600s with tomatoes and things. But I really wanted to know how, sorry, how you thought the notion of food could be used around the world.

MA:

Mm-hmm.

SM:

Um, so, and, and I think I, I read so, AD 63 when, uh, Vespasian was hit by turnips in Africa, but I, you tell me how you think it's been used.

MA:

I mean, I would say it's more like 50 BC. This is just going on my entirely non, my entirely non classical background of having read, uh, Asterix and Obelix.

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

And, uh, do you remember the fishmongers?

SM:

Hey. They’re great.

MA:

[Laughter]

They are great.

But do you remember the fishmonger Unhygienix?

SM:

Yeah.

MA:

How, how he would just like enter every fight by walloping someone with a fish.

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

So, 50 BC. That's my point, my start date.

Um, okay, so, if, if I, if I may kind of like just explain a little bit about what's been happening in Myanmar, uh, so, basically, uh, February, 2021, uh, the army there decided to stage a coup. So, it was the, like the day before the newly elected democratically elected government were meant to be sitting in parliament. They basically kidnapped the prime minister, the, you know, cabinet members, threw them all into prison, um, and declared Martial Law and just told the whole country that no, they were in charge now, which is, you know, quite. . .

SM:

Yes.

MA:

. . . you know, unsettling. Um, and so, what happened was that the, the kind of little by little, the entire country, basically down tools, um, and started what, uh, is being called the, the CDM, so civil disobedience movement.

SM:

Yes.

MA:

Um, and so, the idea was that, that they were trying to bring, um, the country to a halt, uh, in protest and to get the, the, the military to allow the government, the civilian government to sit. Um, and so, kind of one of the primary ways that you saw kind of food sort of as a protest, I think, is the whole kind of, and, and you know, an army march is on, on its stomach, right? That's the saying.

SM:

Yes, absolutely.

MA:

And, and so, every day, like whole towns were going out and protesting and with their banners and, you know, calling out protests and holding their megaphones and, you know, as important as these people kind of making waves with the people on the sidelines and the people on the sidelines were the people kind of providing the food parcels, the, the, you know, the water. Um, and they were doing it at great risks themselves. So, like, you heard tales kind of every other day of people being arrested. So, like, there was quite famously a pickle lady, so, a lady who had the, the most, the most famous pickles in a town called, I think it was [inaudible]. Um, and every day when people were doing their sit-ins and their protests, she would go around with her huge kind of trays, full of the best pickled plums and kind of limes.

SM:

Mmm.

MA:

And, and the way we have pickles is kind of like, it's fruits, right? So, it's, it pickled in like things like salt and pepper and liquorice and sugar. And so. . . . And she would. . . .

SM:

Beautiful.

MA:

Yeah, exactly. And what she would do is she would hand these out to everybody to keep them going, right? Because, you know, it was giving them like little bursts of energy and, you know, the, the army threw her into prison because, you know, she was, you know, keeping these people going. Um, and then, you know, the, so, this was this kinda like an ongoing thing. But then kind of food started appearing as something as, as, as kind of a sign or a symbol of resistance in all sorts of ways. So, we had this thing where, um, as well as kind of doing these demos in person, they were trying to encourage people in the diaspora especially, but also all around the world, you know, whether you were Burmese or not, they were wanting people to join into, with these campaigns. So, we would have these things called the strikes, and there would be these online visual representations. And so, you know, you mentioned eggs earlier. So, we had something called the Easter Egg Strike. And now bear in mind that the, the population, the Christian population of Myanmar is pretty small. Doesn't matter. It was an excuse. And so, what we would do is that, you know, we got eggs and we would paint them with democracy symbols and democracy slogans, and then place them around where they would be found. And, you know, it was just, it was almost like, you know, like a, a symbol to other people to show there is resistance. We are still kind of supporting each other. And so, these eggs were being used kind of just like signs toward, throughout the rest of the world, but also to show solidarity to the people within Myanmar that people, you know, cared about them and knew what they were doing. Um, and then, and then another thing that happened was that it was kind of called the Onion Protest. And what that was, was that there was, um, some military, we, there was rumor that, that some army trucks were heading towards a particular part of Myanmar to basically kind of besiege the place. Um, and what happened was that the, the kind of, there was only one major road for them to get to, to get to this place. And that someone kind of got a truck of onions, um, and they basically kind of pulled down the back of the onion truck. And so, onions were just rolling all around the road, which meant that no one could get through. And then people just kinda ran onto the road and were like, Oh, I've dropped my onions. And you saw these videos of people just very slowly counting and picking up their onions bit by bit. And the thing is the, like, there have been demonstrations and coups and protests in Myanmar since like the sixties since like the first military dictatorship. But because, you know, food was being employed in this way, at first at least the military had no idea what to do because they were used to people being violent and then shooting on the protestors. But when people were just being irritating, you know, so, they were just throwing onions in their way and throwing, you know, any like potatoes, whatever, they were literally just trying to annoy and inconvenience the military as much as they could. So, you know, that was how food was being used. Um, and then other things that we're doing. So, I think I mentioned before that, you know, our desserts tended to tend to be kind of stolen, so, they're all coconut based. So, we, we, we have an, a new year dessert, which is called Mont Lone Yay Paw, and that one is, um, it's like dumpling, so, it's kind of rice flour based dumplings. Um, and in each of them you put like a little piece of jaggery, um, but like in like the sixth one that you would put chili and the whole point was that you played a prank on your friends, so, they wouldn't know which one they were getting.

SM:

Right.

MA:

Um, and so, what happened new year last year, but also the year before that is that people were kind of making these dumplings, but like kind of symbolically putting chilis in all of them.

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

Um, and, and, and, and they were also doing this thing where they, um, were kind of, instead of making the traditional dumplings, they were forming them into like patterns, like huge slogans. So, they'd have these vast bamboo trays and said that you could take overhead shots. And they were, we have this symbol of resistance, which is the three fingers. So, it's three fingers held up, right?

SM:

Yes.

MA:

And so, they were just using this dough to turn to make these hand sized dumplings. Um, so, you know, food was kind of being used visually, um, as well as being to kind of use the source of sustenance for the people that were protesting. Um, and then I think the other most important way that food was used as protests is the rejection of food. And by rejection I mean it in two different ways. So, the first way I guess, um, and maybe more denial, what was happening was that a lot of the street vendors were, um, kind of either openly or not so openly refusing to serve the military and the police. Um, and so, what would happen is that if they saw, you know, the military coming by, they would start to pack up their shops, you know, so, it was kind of, it was like a protest. It was like, I'm not gonna feed you because you don't deserve it. Um, but then again, what happened in Mandalay was that there was one guy who was a bit too bold, I guess, because he literally put up a sign. He, he had like, um, he did pork sticks. So, pork sticks are kind of like pork kababi type things that we have.

SM:

Yes, I remember.

MA:

And he, he. . .

[Laughter]

. . . and he put up a sign which literally said, If you are military or, uh, police, I will not serve you. And so, of course what happened was that the yobs came in and they trashed his stall. So, you know, that is a man's livelihood that was destroyed because he dare to openly say, I will not feed you, right? Um, so, that's the kind of the one way of kind of denial of food or the rejection of food. But then the other one, and I think this is a more kind of historic one, but also it's being used today is, is the use of, um, hunger strike, right?

SM:

Yes.

MA:

So, rejection of food. So, what we have in, I mentioned before that Myanmar is like 80 percent Buddhist. Um, and one of the things that people do often on a daily basis is that they will give alms to monks. So, what happens that the monks will go by and with their alms balls, they're begging balls, and you know, you get merit. It's basically your way of, this is a bad thing to say, but it's kind of your way of being reached into heaven, right? Because the monk comes past and you, you serve them whatever you've cooked from them every day.

SM:

Yes.

MA:

Um, and so, the military in Myanmar, the police in Myanmar would have you believe that they are very religious and very upstanding. And one of the reasons they're doing this is it's nationalistic, but it's also a cultural and religious thing. Cuz you know, the country is being ruined by the west and we are taking back control. It's that idea, right?

SM:

Yes.

MA:

And so, for a lot of them, it's very important for them to like donate to temples and feed monks and all that kind of thing. So, what was happening that a lot of monasteries around Myanmar, they were, um, rejecting donations from the military and the police.

SM:

Ah.

MA:

Um, and the reason this is parti. . . Yeah. And the reason this is particularly pertinent in, in kind of like the idea of protest is that, so, an alms bowl is called the thabeik, right? That's the word for it, thabeik. Um, and what they were doing was that they were kind of symbolically kind of standing in front of their monasteries or going past like the troops with their alms bowls upside down, which means you can't give them food.

SM:

Yeah.

MA:

So, that's called, that's called thabeik hmauk, which means an upturned alms bowl. But that has also, because this is something that Buddhist monks have done for a long time, depending on, you know, why they're rejecting it, thabeik hmauk also means, I resist. So, now even civilians, when they are kind of like on their marches, on their protests, they will do their chants, but as part of the chanting, they will regularly go thabeik, thabeik hmauk, hmauk, which means we turn over our alms bowl, we reject your offering, you're not going to heaven, right?

[Laughter]

SM:

I did not know that. Um, I just wanna, I mean, I want to, you know, I'm gonna avoid some of my questions here or not avoid them because I think this is just too interesting. Um, when you, when you look at this, I mean, you talk about the men, but there's so, many women who are in charge of the food and looking at this particularly, and is that an area where women can go, we can be part of this, this is an important part of what we do as well, and they start going into this and they go, you know, we are in charge here. This is something that we can do. Is that something that is happening there? Because it, it strikes me as something really being a really important thing.

MA:

Oh, definitely. I mean, like in, in Myanmar, I think the women have at least culturally been the ones wearing the trousers. I say wearing the trousers, but no one wears trousers.

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

Like the women and the men, we, we wear sarongs. So, um.

[Laughter]

But, but you know, women, um, have always been at the forefront of the revolution in, in, in Myanmar. Um, it's one of the reasons. . . . So, the, the, the military in Myanmar are very misogynistic, they’re very paternalistic. Um, and one of the ways that they were trying to kind of take back control, um, was try and make it more of a patriarchy. And so, you know, they've been drumming that into the country since the sixties, since before that. And, you know, it's, it's something that people, you know, if you are a sexist, you're gonna kind of buy into this whole everything else. And so, what's been happening is that women have been sidelined. So, even like in terms of kind of representation, even before the military took over, you know, there weren't very many women in politics in Myanmar, but historically there were, you know, so, you know, our first doctor was in the 1900s female doctor. Our first female, um, like governor was in the 1900s. Um, and so, what's been happening is that we were well on the way to be, you know, we, we had to, what's it, the, the, the suffrage, female suffrage, we had that just after they had it here in the UK.

SM:

Oh wow.

MA:

So, we were definitely on the right track. We were definitely on the right track. Um, and then it's just been set back by decades. And so, I think that's one of the reasons why we've been seeing a lot of these protests are actually being led by women, whether or not they're food related. Um, I mean, like my, my own family, my grand, my grandmother and my great aunts were the student protest leaders when there were, there was unrest in the thirties and the forties. So, this is something that I think is in our blood. Um, women kind of like getting out there, but it's been, you know, slightly less noticeable just because of the dictatorship. Um, and then, you know, you were saying about Suu Kyi. So, Aung San Suu Kyi, when she kind of came to the forefront, that's when things started getting better again in terms of kind of feminism, in terms of people realizing that, that, you know, the women should be in the forefront. Um, and I think that's one of the reasons why people are protesting so hard now is because they, it's really noticeable what, what they've lost, you know. It's very noticeable that there was a freedom.

SM:

Yes.

MA:

There was democracy, even if it was always kind of on a leash, because, you know, the military were always there in the background. Um, and now all of that's gone. Um, and so, people are really angry, um, whether they're a woman or a man.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

Um, I, I think this is a, just a fabulous question and I had loads of points going on about, you know, food in different parts of the world, but I think quite frankly, you've talked about, you know, I think you've connected it to Myanmar and it's been brilliant. So, I'm, I'm not going to ask some of the other questions cuz I just think they're basically, they're not so much. . .

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

. . . uh, to the point of what you're doing. Um, I think this has just been a brilliant, uh, series of questions for you. Um, but what I want to do now, because we have, you know, we have about oh, 12 minutes or, or so, uh, I want to ask you some fun questions.

MA:

Okay.

SM:

If I, and, uh, hopefully they, they will be fun. And then I just want you to talk about, um, who you are and where they can find you on Instagram, because I, I, first of all, I do think you are absolutely just a, an amazing person to go and follow. You are, because yes, you'll talk. Yeah, you are, you'll talk about your food and that's wonderful. But you will talk about this politics you will pick up on, you know, all of this all the time. So, um, so, let's start anyway. What's some, what's some fun questions we'll have? Um, well let's say, I hope I have they fun.

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

If, if MiMi Aye was a meal, what would it be? Now I hope it'll be Burmese. . .

MA:

It is, it is.

SM:

But I hope so. I bloody hope so.

MA:

I'd be in trouble if it wasn't. Um, so, it would, it would be Mogok Meeshay, which is, you know, I mentioned the noodle dish, which I think originally came from Yunnan. Um, but basically the reason it would be that, so, that's a pork, tamarind and garlic rice noodle dish. Um, and the reason that I've be, that that would be me is because it's warming, it's punchy, it's, it's a little bit sharp sometimes cuz of like the tamarind, it's multi textured and it's irresistible.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

I have to say that is one of the best, uh, responses I've ever had to this. And I've asked lots of people over the years. And we've asked. . .

MA:
Aww.

SM:

. . . we are, yesterday was in fact the fourth, uh, anniversary of having done Eat My Globe.

MA:

Oh, congratulations.

SM:

Yeah. So, we've done, gosh, a hundred episodes or something now, and, uh, probably about a third of them are interviews and the rest of me writing, you know, my kind of, um, I'd want to say exposes, that's probably not the right word. Uh, but I. . .

MA:

Should I be worried.

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

Yeah, I know. It’s not exposes at all. Um, my little kind of essays on what we're, we're talking about that month. Um, but that is one of the best, uh, uh, questions, um, I've ever had. That's brilliant. Oh, but no, that's fantastic.

Now, if, now, well let's see if they carry on this way.

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

If you could select any specific meal in history or any period in history, what would it be? Because I think this is a really interesting one.

MA:

Yeah. Okay. So, I, I'm gonna cheat and have two answers. Um, and my first.

[Laughter]

My first, my first is semi serious and the second isn't remotely serious.

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

Uh, so, for my semi serious one, this is purely based on a conversation I was having with friends. So, I was visiting friends yesterday and basically we were talking about life expectancies and about things like the paleolithic diet and how it's quite trendy and it's all hunting and discouraging and bloody blah blah. Um, and so, we decided to kind of look up the various diets and you know, what the life expectancies were.

[Laughter]

And so, for example, for Paleolithic it was like 22, so, I'm not entirely sure how much the diet factors into that. Um, but, but then we were looking at all the different diets that, you know, we have record of. And interestingly the one that came up top in terms of life expectancy, um, and we're talking like the eight, you know, in your eighties was the medieval Islamic diet. Now. . .

SM:

Oh my gosh.

MA:

. . . I know nothing about the medieval Islamic diet, but I feel like I need to research it now because when everyone else was dying in their twenties and thirties, they were living till their eighties. So. . .

[Laughter]

SM:

I, I mean apart from, I think it must have some relation not to the tomatoes and obviously stuff like that or maybe some, but it, uh, but it, I think they had a lot of, almost like a European medi. . .  Mediterranean diet.

MA:

Ah.

SM:

So, they used chickpeas. They used legumes. They used all of those things. And I think, I mean they used a tiny bit of meat and they used a lot. So, I think that's what it may be. And I have to go and do some research myself.

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

Um, but what, what was your, what was your second answer?

MA:

My second answer, which isn't remotely serious and is actually fictional, um, is. . .

[Laughter]

. . . seem to be obsessed with Asterix in the moment. So, I would like to go to, um, a go. . . a Gaulish, is that the word banquet as set in Asterix and Obelix and very specifically, I would like to eat a whole roast wild boar. Um. . .

[Laughter]

SM:

So, that Obelix carried around with him on his whatever. . .

MA:

Basically.

SM:

Ah. That would be fantastic.

MA:

[Laughter]

So, that's been, that's kinda been, that's been my dream ever since I was a child. And I dunno how I. . .

SM:

No, I've been reading Asterix ever since I was a child too, and I think that would be a fantastic one. And I think putting on my Eat My Globe, uh, judging hat as I have here, um, I think that would be a, a perfect one to have.

MA:

Oh, amazing. Thank you.

[Laughter]

SM:

That would be fantastic. I think that, and, and for anyone who doesn't know Asterix and Obelix, they are, um, cartoon characters from I think, um, Goscinny and I can't remember the Under, I can't remember who they all called.

MA:

Goscinny and Uderzo, I think they were.

SM:

Uderzo, that was it. And they were from, I think France in the kind of sixties and seventies and they were just brilliant. And they tell, I mean their names in British are fantastic. They're brilliant. And, and in the US I think they're all the same in, uh, British countries and, uh, American countries. So, uh, do go and read them. They are fantastic books and they will tell you, uh, a little bit about history.

[Laughter]

Um, but now then let's get onto, um, what would you consider to be the greatest invention in food history? Hmm.

MA:

So, I ummed and ahhed about this for a long time and I was thinking about things like, ooh, kind of pickling or kind of dehydration or refrigeration. But then I thought, let's take it all the way back. Let's take it all the way back. I think the greatest invention, it's fire. Um, and the, the reason I think it's fire is because that's, that's how we managed to render a lot of stuff edible that wasn't. Um, and that's how, you know, we started cooking really properly, being able to set fire to these and cook them in some way. So.

[Laughter]

SM:

I think on, to be fair on this, uh, season of interviews, that you are not the only. . . . No, you are the only person to name fire. And I will let you go where we did have someone about two seasons ago who named Fire and that's great cuz you know, if you believe it, you can say that. So, I think that would be fair.

MA:

I do.

SM:

We did have someone to mention. We, we had someone this season who did mention refrigeration, and it wasn't the person who talked about reg, uh, refrigeration and ice, which is Fred Hogge, who talked about refrigeration. And he came on to talk about his book, Of Ice and Men, but actually it was a woman who talked about, um, the, uh, importance of kind of Black food waste throughout American history. And she talked about Virginia and she was, uh, amazing. So, I gave her that.

MA:

Okay.

SM:

But I think, I think, Okay, we'll allow fire this time.

MA:

Thank you.

SM:

Normally I go fire and refrigeration.

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

You know, like, eh, you know, cuz it's those ones, but you are. . .

[Cross talk]

So carry on.

MA:

But I was gonna say Prometheus got punished for it, so, I won't [inaudible]

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

That is, I think that is brilliant. And just some final information then, because I think everybody should go and follow, uh, MiMi Aye. But what do you call Meemalee? Is that right?

MA:

Meemalee. Meemalee.

SM:

Meemalee.

MA:

Yeah.

SM:

So, how, first of all, uh, why don't you tell everyone how A, how you spell that?

MA:

Yeah.

SM:

And then B, how you go and, you know, do all of this on, I mean, are you on TikTok?

MA:

I am embarrassingly. I am. I'm way too old to be on TikTok. I am.

SM:

How do you think I am? And I'm, and we do have a friend who is on there who has, he's 65 and he has 800,000 people.

MA:

Amazing.

SM:

He talks about weight loss and he's a surgeon.

MA:

Oh.

SM:

He's brilliant and a very good friend of mine. Um, so, you know, we have a, we have people who don't know, who, you know, do know how they're doing.

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

Talk about Twitter, Instagram, Facebook to TikTok and tell us about them.

MA:

Yes.

[Laughter]

MA:

Okay. So, yeah, so, like Simon says, my name's MiMi Aye but I go by the name Meemalee, which is spelled M E E M A L E E. It's not a Burmese name, it's a name that a friend of mine gave me at university. And to be honest, it's, if you're Burmese, it's a little bit of a rude name, so. . .

[Laughter]

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

. . . I'm not gonna say what it means. Um, but just Burmese people do sometimes ask me, why on Earth I’ve chosen that name. And like I said this, I didn't choose it. Someone gave it to me. Um, and yes, I am very active on Twitter and Instagram. Sometimes they remember that Facebook exists, but, you know.

[Laughter]

I'm there. I, I, if you talk to me on Facebook, I'm there. Um, and on TikTok, I mainly use TikTok to kind of spy on my nieces and nephews and find out what's cool and trendy. And then I fail.

SM:

[Laughter]

MA:

So. . .

[Laughter]

But I am everywhere as the same name. Meemalee. So.

[Laughter]

SM:

Which, which, yes, I guess not many peo. . . I'm, I go on as Simon Majumdar because everyone's gonna find me on that.

MA:

[Laughter]

SM:

There isn't another one. Um, I will. . . . This has been so much fun. I will tell you, this has been, it has been a, it's great to see you.

MA:

You too.

SM:

Because I don't, I don't get to, I kind of see your pictures on Twitter and all of those, and I don't get to know you very much. Um, your amazing stuff about, you know, the food in Myanmar and where it came from and the protests in Myanmar I think has been fantastic for me. Um. . . I just wanna say, I wanna say thank you very much for coming on Eat My Globe. It's been a real, real pleasure.

MA:

Oh, thank you. You know, you, you, you know, this is such a huge honor. I, I, I'm, I feel kind of embarrassed to be here because you know, you, you have such amazing people on, but hopefully I can hold my own, so, No, thank you.

SM:

You definitely, definitely have. I just wanna say thank you very much.

MA:

Thank you.

OUTRO MUSIC

SM:

Do make sure to check out the website associated with this podcast at www dot Eat My Globe dot com where we will be posting the transcripts from each episode, along with all the references and resources we used putting the episodes together, in case you want to delve deeper into each subject. There is also a contact button, so please do let us know if there are any subjects that you would like us to cover.

And, if you like what you hear, please don’t forget to subscribe, recommend us to your family and friends and give us a good rating on your favorite podcast provider. That really makes a difference.

Thank you and goodbye from me, Simon Majumdar, and we’ll speak to you soon on the next episode of EAT MY GLOBE, a podcast about things you didn’t know you didn’t know about food.

CREDITS

The EAT MY GLOBE Podcast is a production of “It’s Not Much But It’s Ours” and “Producer Girl Productions.”

[Pa pa pa pa pa sound]